Very Sick Loaches at LFS and What to do About it??

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soul-hugger
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Very Sick Loaches at LFS and What to do About it??

Post by soul-hugger » Sat Jan 03, 2009 10:41 pm

The last couple times I have been at LFS' other than my two favourite locally owned shops, I have seen some horrible things. It has been bothering me a lot, so I decided to share it in hope that someone may learn from it, to open a "sharing circle" of similar experiences, and to pose an open-ended question.

About a week and a half ago, I went to Petland, and saw some small clown loaches with a very bad case of Ich. Not wanting to offend anyone, and thinking they must have already known, I decided not to say anything. After all, I have not been involved in fishkeeping all that long, and I thought someone else with more expertise would give the diagnosis, hopefully someone who worked there. But still I wondered why they would be in the display tank. Then when I was at the same store just a couple of days ago, I made a point of visiting the clowns. I was astounded at what I saw. The ich had got so bad, it was the worst I have ever seen, and one of the clowns was lying on the floor dying! :cry: I thought it was already dead until I saw its little gills moving. It was struggling to breathe and barely alive. This was too much. I waited for someone to come and then I called one of the staff over. I pointed out the clowns, and she thanked me for showing them to her, saying she didn't know they were sick. I felt so bad that I didn't say something the first time. It made me sick that I overestimated them and underestimated myself and my ability to do the right thing. It was very sad because I don't think that one poor clown in particular could be saved, and it was probably best to be put out of its misery. The other two were bad but looked like there was hope for them. I recommended that she take them out of the display tank and quarantine them immediately, but I did not see this happen. If I had the right kind of set-up for them, I would have taken them home and treated them myself.

Then I paid a visit to the fish department at the Wal-Mart a couple of doors down. There was a tank full of weather loaches in incredibly poor condition. They were so lethargic I thought some of them were dead, and their bodies were all lumpy and bumpy, suggesting a horrible infestation of internal parasites. Some of the others looked like their heads were gigantic because their bodies were so thin. I have never seen anything like this, either, and these are one of my favourite kinds of fish. This time I informed the staff right away.

What I was wondering is if others have had this experience, and what did you do? What would be the right action to take, and what would be stepping over the line? I have thought of calling both stores, and asking them if they had done anything about their sick fish, but I wasn't sure if this would be appropriate. Then again, perhaps in some situations, "appropriateness" is overrated. I am even having trouble posting this here, because there is no delicate way to explain what I saw, what I didn't do, and what I would like to do. I am deeply troubled by the things I have been seeing and would like to do more about it, but don't know how. Part of what I have learned is not to make assumptions. I should never assume someone else will do what I know I can do. What would be great is if there was a way to ensure the humane treatment of all animals regardless of what kind.

soul-hugger

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Gary Stanton
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Post by Gary Stanton » Sun Jan 04, 2009 12:01 am

I NEVER go into those stores. I gave up many years ago. Most of the chain type stores have pathetic fish departments. Too sad to look at.
"Beware of the fish people, they are the true enemy."
-- Frank Zappa, speech to a pro-choice rally in Los Angeles around 1989-90

yellowsub9
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Bad petshops for fish

Post by yellowsub9 » Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:23 am

These places have housewives and teenagers that dont know anything about fish! When I go in these places for cat or dog stuff I sometimes ask them questions with obvious answers for fun - they usually come up with the wrong answer and or I cant believe they said that type answers. Yes it is sad to see these fish suffering because of these stupid people. Although I have pointed out 2 or 3 times about fish that were being beat up and almost dying - they actually did something about it.

OneWay
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Post by OneWay » Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:36 am

Our PetSmart has some of the nicer fish around,, it is actually surpizing
how well their fish are maintained. I feel this is due to the dedication of
the staff at this one store than the chain as a whole.

The clowns there are robust, large, and rather cheap in comparision to
other dealers. I would say they run just over 3" and are extremely
healthy and hardy for $6.



but now to add my anger management story. Mine
is directed at Fedex and as fate would have it,,, mine happened today.

I was expecting a shipment from Live Aquaria consisting of:
4 Botia Darios
2 Botia almorhae
1 gold nugget pleco

Oddly enough, they arrived in my town at 8:36am and put on a truck for
delivery @ 8:49am... only to be sent to a black hole.

The fish never arrived and fedex has no idea why the shipment was not
delivered.. so those fish are most certainly dead.. sitting at fedex until
monday.

It chaps my hide for paying extra for Saturday delivery,, just for the fact i
know ill be home,, but then to waste the whole day waiting for fish that
are going to die in the back of some idiots truck.. gah pisses me off.

Oddly enough i have not had problems with fedex in the past, even with
shipments from LiveAquaria, but i guess there is always a first. I am just
waiting for them to blame me somehow for this screwup.

ok, even venting,, i dont feel any better, sigh.

GN

yellowsub9
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Post by yellowsub9 » Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:44 am

OneWay wrote:Our PetSmart has some of the nicer fish around,, it is actually surpizing
how well their fish are maintained. I feel this is due to the dedication of
the staff at this one store than the chain as a whole.

The clowns there are robust, large, and rather cheap in comparision to
other dealers. I would say they run just over 3" and are extremely
healthy and hardy for $6.



but now to add my anger management story. Mine
is directed at Fedex and as fate would have it,,, mine happened today.

I was expecting a shipment from Live Aquaria consisting of:
4 Botia Darios
2 Botia almorhae
1 gold nugget pleco

Oddly enough, they arrived in my town at 8:36am and put on a truck for
delivery @ 8:49am... only to be sent to a black hole.

The fish never arrived and fedex has no idea why the shipment was not
delivered.. so those fish are most certainly dead.. sitting at fedex until
monday.

It chaps my hide for paying extra for Saturday delivery,, just for the fact i
know ill be home,, but then to waste the whole day waiting for fish that
are going to die in the back of some idiots truck.. gah pisses me off.

Oddly enough i have not had problems with fedex in the past, even with
shipments from LiveAquaria, but i guess there is always a first. I am just
waiting for them to blame me somehow for this screwup.

ok, even venting,, i dont feel any better, sigh.


GN
Sorry to hear about your misfortune - its part of life.

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Gary Stanton
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Post by Gary Stanton » Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:45 am

OneWay wrote: but now to add my anger management story. Mine
is directed at Fedex and as fate would have it,,, mine happened today.

I was expecting a shipment from Live Aquaria consisting of:
4 Botia Darios
2 Botia almorhae
1 gold nugget pleco

Oddly enough, they arrived in my town at 8:36am and put on a truck for
delivery @ 8:49am... only to be sent to a black hole.

The fish never arrived and fedex has no idea why the shipment was not
delivered.. so those fish are most certainly dead.. sitting at fedex until
monday.


GN
It happened to me with UPS 2 1/2 years ago. My seven Frontosas got lost for twelve hours. One died and I still have the other six.

The consolation was that I didn't have to pay for the freight although I would rather of had the other fish. Luckily this is a small town and the UPS people let me pick them up at 9:00 PM or all of them would have died.

I know how out of control you feel when this happens. Grr.
"Beware of the fish people, they are the true enemy."
-- Frank Zappa, speech to a pro-choice rally in Los Angeles around 1989-90

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soul-hugger
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Post by soul-hugger » Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:10 pm

OneWay, I am very sorry to hear about this.., for you, and for the fish! It is very sad they can't take more care with a package that is actually living. I'm not sure how long fish can live in bags, but if they are all dead, there should be some form of compensation from those at fault, this time, Fed-Ex.

You can't totally blame the staff at these places for the sad condition of the fish. You are cetainly right that most of them don't know better, and are only doing the minimal things they can to keep their jobs. I have also asked simple questions and got wrong answers, and it really gives me an idea what kind of standard the management has for their staff. If they have low standards here, they probably skimp on other things as well. In places like Wal-Mart, there would be no guarantee even if one staff member were to do their best that others would do the same, and with the volume of staff, that it would even help. I have thought about getting a job at a fish store, and this is one of the things I have considered about it. It could end up being frustrating if there were too many people who didn't care.

It is also a good point to say that the individual store has more to do with the care of its pets than the name. I have seen this as well. This also goes to show it has a lot to do with the management.

Eventually I may give up on these places all together. If everyone were to do this, there would be no business for them, and no reason to continue selling sick fish. But obvoiusly this is not going to happen. This is what I have been mulling over in my mind, and wondering if there is something larger to be done. We have come a long way with learning to treat other animals with respect, and cruelty towards them is being tolerated less and less. I think fish have to be next. Regardless of what people think their level of intelligence is, they are still living things, and should be treated as such.

I guess just like anything else, you have to try to see the silver lining, as hard as that can be to do.

soul-hugger

Diana
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Post by Diana » Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:32 pm

Many chain stores have filtration in common, and it takes a very special effort to isolate a tank and treat.
Read: Time and material.
Read: $.
It is cheaper to ignore the problems. The Ich has already spread through the store (via the common filters) so that if they acknowledge the problem they would have to quarantine all the tanks that are on that filter.

Near me (well, 30 mile radius) there are at least 5 Pet Smart stores. 4 of the 5 take decent enough care of their fish that I am willing to buy some fish there, but only if all the tanks look healthy (common filtration) and even then I will quarantine the fish. I frequently see the fish being fed an assortment of fruits and vegetables. The sales staff may not have all the answers, but they will tell me when the expert is on duty. That person does know more about the fish, though even this person's first goal is 'Make the sale!'.

The closest Wal Mart has quit carrying fish. When they had fish I saw similar problems as noted above: Only one employee really seemed to know anything about the fish at all, and she was not allowed to do what needed to be done. No medication. No special feeding. The burned out light was never replaced (over a year), dead fish were not removed regularly, bad advise...
The local branches of Pet Co are just as bad. There are 4 within that 30 mile radius, and I do not go into any of them any more. Not even for dog or cat supplies.

There are a lot of independent fish stores and in general they are quite good. There are a few that I do not go to.
The people in these stores will listen when I see Ich, and I do see NFS (Not For Sale) on some tanks, and the fish are being medicated. These stores are not without their problems, but overall I would prefer to shop at almost any of these independent stores compared to any chain store.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.

Happy fish keeping!

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soul-hugger
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Post by soul-hugger » Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:47 pm

Hello, Diana..,

You are right that most of the fish are on a common filter. I had not taken this into consideration. I guess it would be a lot of work to isolate and treat the fish, especially if they have all been exposed. There are only a few fish stores in Saskatoon, and only two of them are locally owned. Like the stores you spoke of, they are not perfect, either, but the staff is knowledgeable and they seem to care about the fish. There would be no way for any store to be perfect, with all the work it takes to keep them clean and in good order. Even our tanks at home aren't perfect. But it would be nice to see some of them take more care.

I always appreciate your answers. You give me something good to think about every time :D

soul-hugger

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Emma Turner
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Post by Emma Turner » Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:14 pm

I just have to say that we have centralised systems at our shop, and it requires no big effort whatsoever to take an individual tank off system and treat. If shops say this, it is a very poor excuse! I just don't understand these places that don't/won't do it. If we (or a customer) notice that any fish aren't 100% we will take them off sale, with a NFS label, and treat. A lot of places will put fish on sale the moment they arrive at the store too - this is very bad practice and no doubt where a lot of problems stem from.

Also, one other point, the water passing through most centralised systems goes through a set of UV sterilisers before the water enters the tanks again. Ours also passes an ozone generator.

I take it that fish shops don't have to get a licence to trade in America? Over here, shops have to undergo insepctions by the local council before a certificate is issued. Of course, some dodgy places inevitably get through as some councils are not as strict as others, and it depends whether the person doing the inspection knows much about fish.

Emma
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yellowsub9
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Post by yellowsub9 » Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:29 pm

Emma,

i live near Chicago, Ill. and its a tradition where money talks (if you know what I mean!) the certificate that is issued claiming that the store adheres to codes might have been accomplished under the table! BTW - a disgruntled employee at PetSmart who got fired went back and poisoned their stock of fish and they had to close down for a few days! Thats life in the big city I guess. Sad.....

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LeStat
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Post by LeStat » Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:33 am

Unfortunately it is not uncommon for these large chain stores to have sick or dying fish on sale, I must admit to buying there poorly clowns in the vain hope of saving them as I know the staff are either not willing or not able to give them the attention they need (I still have four of them going strong). But some privately owned shops are equally as bad, one local to me is so bad I have stopped visiting. I am fortunate to have two Maidenhead aquatics stores & a world of water close by which are always well kept with healthy happy fish.
250 Gallon, 8 Modesta, 2 Plec, 2 Catfish & a shoal of 17 Clown loach.

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soul-hugger
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Post by soul-hugger » Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:14 pm

Thank-you, Emma, for giving us an insider's point of view. Indeed, in this case there was only the one tank with fish that looked really bad. Most of the others seemed to be in decent health. I have also seen both of these stores adding fish which I assumed had just arrived, unless they were bringing them in bags from quarantine. There is another Petland, on the other side of the city, that seems to take better care. It is an older store that has been operating for a long time. The one I speak of is brand new.., I just went to their Grand Opening a couple of months back.

Would it be rude to ask to see their quarantine facilities? Perhaps this would help to assess the process the fish go through before they get to the display tanks. Or I could just ask what theydo with the fish when they arrive. At my favourite LFS, the owner goes and picks them up right from the airport. He takes the time out and hangs a sign on the door saying he'll be back. But I've been seeing that no matter what their practices are, it is no substitute for quarantine at home. That is why my plans for further stocking are on hold until I set up one more tank for this purpose.

I'm not sure if people have to get permits to run the store, but in any case, there seems to be those who are in it just for the money, whether they are big chains, or small local stores. There are people like this in every profession, but I find with a little time and non-judgemental insight, you can pick them out. Or mostly, you can pick out the people who are really interested and thoughtful in what they do. For example, my favourite LFS. His tanks are not perfect, but I have never seen sick fish there. I have never gone there to see another employee, because he runs the store himself, and has his own tanks at home. It is this kind of dedication that brings me back, because this is his life's work.

I'm sorry, I have been thinking and writing so much I forgot your name, but I don't blame you for bringing sick fish home. It is nice to hear you were able to save them. Fish rescue, we'll call it. This goes to show they can be saved. I wish I had a quarantine and tank space, or I would have done this with the clowns I saw too.

A very interesting conversation..,
soul-hugger

OneWay
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Post by OneWay » Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:14 pm

Sorry for butting my way into your thread Soul Hugger, just found it fitting to add my information to yours.


As i do have an update-
After Live Aquaria did a trace route on what happened, they found out the FedX driver said he ran out of time and just didnt deliver them.

Fedex said they delivered them this morning, so i left work,, to find nothing again. So no bodies or lucky pleco to report yet, but Live Aquaria is sending a new shipment.

So hopefully I will have some pictures on Wednesday to share.


OneWay
Last edited by OneWay on Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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soul-hugger
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Post by soul-hugger » Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:44 pm

I'm glad to hear they are sending some more fish. That part is good, because your money won't be wasted, and you will get the fish you probably really wanted. But I do hope you can find out what happened to the others.

Unfortunately it seems there are so many factors at play here whenever something like this happens. Not having enough time is something that is a problem for anyone, in almost any job. Everything now goes at such a fast pace, and both people and companies try to pretend like they can handle it. In reality, this pace is detrimental to so many things.

I hope this time all goes well, and I'll look forward to seeing the pictures!

Take Care..,
soul-hugger

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