Skinny after treatment in Q tank

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tender
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Skinny after treatment in Q tank

Post by tender » Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:32 pm

Hi!
I have 2 clowns and 2 dwarfs that I am treating in a q-tank. So far everything looks fine. I have done 3 flubenol treatments and I`m about to do a second round of maracyn 1+2. The fish are gaining weight and I`m expecting a full recovery :D

But; looking into my main tank I see one more clown which shows typical signs of skinny. And it`s come about quite rapidly - I think -.

I don`t want to treat the main tank, but at the same time I only have 1 q-tank. Should I simply add the clown to my q-tank now (before I start last treatment with Maracyn) or should I risk waiting the 5 days, before I can get the others out, and start yet another flubenol/maracyn treatment?

I`m worried that the recovering fish will get a relapse, but on the other hand, I don`t want to loose the poor guy in the main tank.

Advice is very much appreciated :D

Kind regards
Marius

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chefkeith
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Post by chefkeith » Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:44 pm

How difficult would it be to get and set-up another Q-tank?

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tender
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Post by tender » Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:48 pm

Unfortunately; impossible :cry: I have stretched everybodys patience, and every square inch in my flat. The kids and I need a place to sleep, so I can`t through out our beds :wink:

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chefkeith
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Post by chefkeith » Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:02 pm

You could try to medicate some food and feed it to the loach in question while it is in the main tank.

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tender
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Post by tender » Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:10 pm

I suppose so. Any hints on how? I find it a bit difficult to imagine the tiny one getting enough food with meds with 8 clowns, 7 striatas and 6 dwarfs to compete with. But I`m willing to give it a shot, I just don`t understand how to accomplish it???. Also; the meds are powder, how do I mix it into the food?

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chefkeith
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Post by chefkeith » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:05 pm

I haven't tried this with Flubenol, but this is how I'd do for Levamisole-

Dissolve 50 mg of the medication in 1 teaspoon of water. Add a drop of garlic paste to the medicated water to entice the fish more. Add the medicated water to about 1 tablespoon of pellet food. Mix well. Pellet foods should soak up the medication in about 5 minutes.

50 mg isn't much. It's only about as much as a few grains of rice.

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tender
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Post by tender » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:19 pm

Ok! I might have a go at this :D
But another question has come to mind; I looked into the q-tank tonight and I noticed something remarkable. I have treated the fish with 3*flubenol and 1*maracyn 1+2. I saw yesterday that finally all but the last clown were totally fine. Gaining weight and feeding happily. The 1 clown (which was seriously ill 5 days ago) has regainded almost all his body mass. Incredible!! Since the fish obviously has "gotten on top of" the bacterial infection (I saw no improvement after the flubenol cures) could I move them already tomorrow? I know 2 treatments of maracyn is recommended, but the others have been fine for 4-5 days now, and I`m convinced they are cured. I have never seen dwarfs or clowns gain so much weight as I have in the last week or so!!

PS: finally i`have been succsessful in getting rid of skinny here in Norway. It`s bloody difficult and time-consuming when all effective meds are illlegal!!!

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chefkeith
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Post by chefkeith » Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:08 pm

Congrats on the successful treatments.

You could move them, just be sure to acclimate them to the main tank slowly. You can probably start acclimating them now, so that they'll be ready in 24 hours.

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tender
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Post by tender » Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:47 pm

Yeah! It`s pretty remarkable. I`ve spent 6 months or so, trying to analyze - and get hold of - the right meds. Once i got it all, the cure is simply a miracle - THÀNKS TO ALL YOU PEOPLE ON LOACHES :D :D

Chefkieth: I think I`ll follow youre advice. The cured fish will enter the main tank tomorrow. The sick clown will be put into quarantine and recieve flubenol asap.

Thanks for the help!

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tender
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Post by tender » Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:19 pm

Instead of starting a new thread I`ll continue on this one, as my question is related to the topic.

I moved the cured fish to the main tank, and they are doing fine :D
I isolated the sick clown and started treatment. Some days later I saw that another clown started to develop symptoms, and a little later, another one. The symptoms were the classical "sunken-in" shape. They didn`t seem to be very thin, but as I was already treating one fish in my q-tank I thought it best to remove these two over to the q-tank aswell. The three have now been treated with two rounds of Flubenol and one round of Marazyn 1 + 2. They are doing fine. Nice round shapes on all of them :) BUT: there now seems to be another one that is showing symptoms. Not a lot, and it doesn`t seem to be moving on as fast as before. But still; I can definetly see the same symptoms coming along slowly. It seems a bit of a waste to keep on putting Clowns into the q-tank, treating them, and shortly after another fish develops symptoms. Something is obviously going on in the main tank and I`m starting to think I should do a treatment there. Since last time, I have been able to get hold of Levamisole, thanks to C. Harrison :D the previous anti-parasitic I used was Flubendazole.

Should I do a one-off treatment with Levamisole in the main tank and possibly follow up with Maracyn?

PS: the reason I haven`t treated in a Q-tank when I first purchased the clowns a year ago is that the meds simply weren`t available in Norway, and it has taken a lot of effort and time to finally get hold of them. Otherwise I would of course have quarantined and treated outside of the main tank.

Kind regards
Marius

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Post by Diana » Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:19 pm

I would treat the main tank. Yes it will be expensive getting that much medicine to treat, but apparently the disease and parasites are living in the main tank. Even the fish you have quarantined and cured may catch it again.

I have used Maracyn and Maracyn II and not had any problem with the nitrifying bacteria, but just in case, it might be helpful to have an extra mass of cycled filter media ready to go back into the filter of the main tank when the medicines have finished. You can do a fishless cycle in a bucket to raise the bacteria. I would not get a starter culture from the infected tank, though. If you have another tank that is healthy, use some filter media from that one. The bacteria will even get growing if you start with no bacteria at all, it is just faster if you jump-start the fishless cycle with some.
When I used Levamisol it was in a small tank, few fish, and lots of water changes. I have no idea if it causes problems with the nitrifying bacteria.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.

Happy fish keeping!

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tender
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Post by tender » Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:41 pm

Hi Diana!
Thanks for the tip :D I`m not so worried about the filter bacteria either. The 3 times I have used Maracyn in the q-tank I have had no problems. But if something should happen I have plenty of cycled filter media to add. But I will monitor the parameteres closely. I think I`ll start with Levamisole (which doesn`t hurt nitryfying bacteria, as far as I have found out??) and if necessary I`ll use the Maracyn. I don`t think it will be very expensive either. I bought a huge amount of Levamisole Hydrochlorid from Mr. Harrison and if I have understood chefkieth`s dosage calculator correctly it is a very tiny amount needed. The tank is 300 l. I also have plenty of Maracyn. But if I need to use this, I`m thinking about lowering the water level quite a bit. This would obviously then require less amount of medication. Do you think this a good idea? Also; A friend of mine has a lot of Maracyn Plus. Is this as effective as Maracyn 1 + 2?

Kind regards
Marius

Diana
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Post by Diana » Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:41 pm

Maracyn Plus is a different active ingredient. Since you have been seeing such good results with M and M II stick with them.

Lowering the water level just a bit is fine. The increased splash from the water from the filter hitting the surface increases the aeration, and this can be very helpful. I would not lower the level too much, though. You are changing the volume as you note. This may help with the economy of medicine, but it is also placing more fish in a smaller volume of water. Oxygen needs and waste accumulation suggest that you do not want to do this. Certainly moving fish out of this tank to a hospital tank is reducing the fish mass in the tank, so maybe it is OK to drop the level a little more.

Adding medicine to food:
Make the Loach Recipe and add as much medicine as you want to a small amount of the batch. Label those medicated packages. Then ALL the fish will get the medicine, and stop (hopefully) the spread of this problem. The other fish may very well be carriers, even if they are not showing the symptoms.

How I did it:
Determine how much food I wanted to feed the tank.
Determine what was the right dose of medicine. When you feed medicated food it takes a lot smaller dose to treat the fish since they are getting it internally.
Mix the "one meal" of food with "one dose" of medicine. Put this in a small plastic bag (I use sandwich bags) And make up enough "single meals" to fully treat the tank as many times as needed.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.

Happy fish keeping!

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tender
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Follow up - still some problems!

Post by tender » Thu Jun 11, 2009 4:05 pm

I`ll continue on this thread....
I still haven`t been able to totally get rid of whatever is causing problems in the main tank. Since last post the following has happened:

3 Striatas died overnight.. I have no reason why, but it wasn`t skinny... They had some white/grey patches on them... I first suspected Columnaris, but I have eliminated this theory, all the time it only affected the Striatas, and this is a very contageous disease. Following this I treated the main tank with Levamisole,Flubenol and finally Maracyn 1+2. Regarding the Levamisole I followed the dosage recomended here on Loaches. I was a bit unsure about this, as the recomended dosage is way lower than what is recomended on Charles Harrisons homepage... Anyway... One skinny clown didn`t make it, despite this treatment. This is the first time I have been unsucsesfull with these meds. One of my largest clowns (about 13-15 cm) started to show clear signs of skinny. I decided that I had to remove all the clowns from the tank and put them in quarantine, even the ones that didn`t show symptoms. The problem constantly seems to attack only the clowns. They have now undergone 1 round of Flubenol,1 cure with Maracyn and are now on theyre second treatment with Flubenol. The plan is to administer a second round of Maracyn as soon as the Flubenol cure has ended. I now have a spare tank available and I`m wondering if I should remove the healthy looking Clowns to this tank after the treatment has ended to monitor if they develop any more symptoms. Does this sound sensible??? Unfortunately the 2 clowns with symptoms are not gaining any weight, so they will stay in the q-tank until I find out whats going on. Just before the Striatas died I purchased 5 kubs. Because I was going to medicate the main tank I dropped quaranting them. I think this was a big mistake.. The Striatas died a few days after they were put into the tank... Is it really possible that they could have carried something that only affected Striatas???
The 3 Clowns that previously were in the q-tank were moved over to the main tank about 3 weeks ago (after the others were removed) and so far they are doing fine. Really round and healthy looking.

Anyway; does anybody out there have any idea as to what might be knocking out my clowns and not attacking any of the other Loaches?? (Sids,Histrionica,Kubs). And what is really the recomended dosage of Levamisole, since it is such a major difference between the article and the supplier, Mr. Harrison?

All suggestions is very much appreciated. I`m getting a bit tired of this now, and I certainly don`t want to lose any more clowns. They are my absolute favorites :cry:

Kind regards
Marius

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chefkeith
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Post by chefkeith » Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:05 pm

Levamisole and Flubenol treat the same thing, which is round worms, particulary Capillaria and Camallanus. You might need to switch to praziquantel, which will treat flatworms.

Capillaria-infections are usually found in Angelfish and Discus.
Symtoms would be- seperation, erratic swimming also emaciation, very hungry, sometimes pop-eye, white stringy excrements with Capillaria-eggs

Camallanus-infection can be easily recognized, since the worms hang from the anus of the infected fish.

Flatworms are found mostly in Corydoras catfish, Cardinal Tetras, South American Cichlids, Elephant noses, Synodontis catfish, Tanganica and Malawi Cichlids.
Symptoms would be- emaciation, hollow belly, darker color, and secondary bacterial infections. Fish may have large white inclusions or black dots on the body.

Source: Colorguide of tropical fish diseases by Gerald Bassleer.

As far as I know dosage for Levamisole is 2 ppm. I got that from several sources. Some people may use as much as 15 ppm though.

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