Clown Loaches sick... AGAIN

[Icewall42]

This is the umpteenth time my 72 gallon has been sick with SOMETHING. After spending $300+ on a new filter, stuffing that filter full of ammonia absorbing stones and carbon, the ammonia will not budge. The tank is overfiltered with a Rena XP3 and a Magnum 350, the aeration in that tank is massive, and I have been dosing the tank with ammolock like it's fish candy. I tried doing water changes and that caused the ammonia to spike.

Next I tried adding minimal salt. Then I tried adding Cycle to the tank once weekly as maintenance for the biological filter. I've had numerous bacteria blooms so I KNOW the tank was trying to cycle.

I just can't get rid of the ammonia no matter what I do.

Now, all my clowns suddenly developed cloudy eyes, body slime, and fin rot. In a matter of hours. Maybe not even an hour. I;'ve had so many fish die over the past year, each froma different disease. I've tried everything in the world to make this tank right. I gave it live plants, too. No new fish were introduced for months or more. The live plants were rinsed before I put them in there, but fish were dying even when I hadn't added live plants.

I've had it with the tank. I just can't figure out why I've had so many problems with it. It's not overcrowded as obviously many fish have died. And my 30g, which sues the same tap water, has NEVER EVER had an epidemic of any kind. And I daresay it's dirtier and maybe a bit crowded.

I just don't know what to do... I've run clean out of ideas. All I can hope for is to get a completely new tank, sterilize everything (again) and hope I can eradicate whatever the problem seems to be.

One of the loaches is looking pretty bad. I'm treating with Furan-2, but I might give a meth blue dip a go...

[Diana]

Cycle does not have the right bacteria. Use Tetra Safe Start or Dr. Tim's One and Only.

Does your tap water have ammonia?
If not, then a big water change will reduce the ammonia by as much as the water change. ie: a 50% water change will drop the ammonia by 50%.
What is the pH of the tap and the tank? In water with low pH ammonia is more often in the ammonium form (NH4+) and is less toxic.

The symptoms seem consistent with ammonia poisoning, it is an irritant so the fish will produce more slime coat, and it can irritate eyes, gills and the tender tissue in the fins, leading to respiratory issues and fin rot.

The medications you are adding may very well be killing off whatever ammonia removing bacteria has been getting started.

Nitrifying bacteria does not grow so fast as to cause cloudy water. Heterotrophic bacteria do grow this fast, and there may be other things going on that can cloud the water, for example green water algae would like all the extra ammonia.

Here is how I would handle this:
1) Move any reasonable amount and species of fish to the cycled tank. (Caution: if you are really dealing with disease issues, not just a reaction to the ammonia do not do this)
2) Increase the water changes, as long as the tap water GH, KH and pH is similar to the tank. Keep the filter as clean as possible, and do thorough gravel vacs to reduce the organic load in the tank. If you need to lower the pH add peat moss to the filter, and prepare the water change water with peat moss overnight.
3) Continue using the zeolite. This is starving the bacteria if you use enough to really keep the ammonia down, but I will address this in the next paragraph. Use plenty of it.
4) Keep renewing the activated carbon, to remove whatever medicines you have in the tank. Do not use a blended product. AC cannot be rejuvenated.
5) Use an ammonia locking product, and use the appropriate test kit so that you will be testing FREE ammonia, not the locked up stuff. You will have to look into which test and which ammonia locking products you are using to be sure they are compatible.
6) Add as many live plants as you can, if the light is at least 1 watt per gallon. Anacharis, Hornwort, and several other fast growing plants are good with removing ammonia.
7) Reduce feeding as much as the fish will tolerate without eating each other. Feed as much low protein foods as possible. More vegies, less meat. Read the label on packaged foods for the low protein foods.
Get a product with the proper nitrifying bacteria. You are looking for Nitrospiros spp. (see the paragraph below the Zeolite paragraph if you cannot find the right product)
9) When you have done enough water changes that the ammonia is significantly lowered use the product. This will mean not doing water changes for a few days to allow the bacteria to settle into the filter media.

How to use Zeolite
1) Make up 3 bags of this material. I use nylon stockings, but media bags are available in stores, too.
2) Day 1: Add 2 bags to the tank. (In the filter, or hanging in the tank near a lot of water movement)
3) Day 2: Swap out one of the bags and put the 3rd bag in. Rejuvenate the one you have removed; read the label or do some research, but I believe this involves soaking overnight in strong salt solution (table salt or other sodium chloride), then rinsing in RO, distilled or clean tap water.
4) Day 3: Put the rejuvenated bag in the tank, remove the bag that has been in there the longest. Rejuvenate this one.
5) Days 4 and beyond: Continue the daily rotation. for a while.
6) When you are ready to add Tetra Safe Start, Dr. Tims' One and Only or other (see below) remove the zeolite. It will only starve the bacteria.

What you are doing: By constantly rotating and rejuvenating the zeolite you are keeping a steady rate of removal going on in the tank. If you need to remove more, add more zeolite to each bag. Gradually the zeolite does get filled with other stuff, and cannot be rejuvenated. This is allowing more ammonia to remain in the tank. This will feed the (hopefully) growing bacteria population.

If you cannot find the proper product in the brick and mortar stores, or on line:
Do the fishless cycle in a bucket.
Set up any sort of circulation through any sort of media. Example: Sponge filter, in tank (well, in bucket) filter, HOB filter such as Aquaclear (Square sided container such as a storage box is great for an Aquaclear)
Add a little media from the cycled tank. I would want to add as much as you can, but do not take so much from the cycled tank that it starts to have problems, especially if you have moved a few fish over to it. A handful or two of gravel would be fine.
Add ammonia (clear, non sudsing, no perfume) so the test reads 5 ppm.
Keep testing and add more ammonia as needed to maintain 5 ppm. After a few days test for nitrite. When nitrite shows up allow the ammonia to drop to 3 ppm, then maintain 3 ppm. Monitor the levels of ammonia and nitrite. When the bacteria have grown a big enough population that they can reduce the ammonia and nitrite to 0 ppm overnight add the filter to the troubled tank.

[Icewall42]

This is all very good information. I have actually tried much of what you already detailed and it hasn't worked.

The tank pH sits at about 6.0-6.5, so ammonia toxicity is low.

It's really unfortunate that Cycle didn't have what I needed. I was also using Biozyme powder for a while with no real difference.

I have high doubts this is ammonia poisoning. First, I had just added a full dose of AmmoLock literally the night before all this happened. A couple days before that, I replenished water in the tanka fter a lot had evaporated. I used full doses of Prime to condition the water.

I need to test the tap for ammonia, but the last time I did a 30% water change, the ammonia spiked from 0 to... a lot. I don't rmemeber the exact count but my Mardel in-tank meter shot up to "stress" levels. Right now it hangs around high caution and will not budge from there. I used this in-tank meter (which proved itself wrong when I changed a "stress" meter to a new meter that hours later read "safe.") I also use a liquid based ammonia test but that has consistently hit the highest counts, probably do to the AmmoLock.

With that in mind, I have had numerous problems with bacteria and disease. Those were treated successfuly with medication, but only after fish had died and I had stressed over figuring out the problem. Earlier the last month, a couple clowns had a minor cloudy eye. That was treated with Furan-2. It went away.

Now I have this issue which came on with a real vengence. I suspect very heavuly it is disease related. The bacteria from the previous infections probably resurrected.

One clown was dying when I left for work. He went from healthy to dying in an hour. I can't change the water because it spikes the ammonia.

I have at least 3 bags of the ammonia absorbers. I first had both of them, new and rinsed, in the Rena. I also put the stones in the Magnum. It might have worked, but ammonia was already at zero. So I took out a bag and recharged it. Ammonia didn't budge. Bought a new bag and a carbon (unmixed) bag. Neither of those did a thing. Ifollowed the recharging instructions that Rena provided. The filter uses biostars.

If this is disease, I can't move any of the fish into the 30g. The ones living in there will get sick. Plus, it's not big enough for all of them.

I've been adding live plant as store have them avaialble. They tend to die quickly, and stores around here re ridiculous for keeping anything in stock.

I have been reducing feeding and using veggie wafers.

Here's what's driving me nuts. The 30g, which I set up the same way as the 72 and filled with the exact same tap water at the exact same time, which has been overcrowded before: This tank is cycled. It has no ammonia, no epidemics, never any cloudiness, rarely gets clean.... yet it is so much healthier. I once had an 11" and a 9" clown loach along with 3 4-5" modestas and an assortment of smaller loaches in this 30g for an entire year with almost no water changes. They were all perfectly healthy and happy after that year when I moved them into the 72. the 72 has problems every single month while the 30 has absolutely none. Why? The 72 has dealt with this issue and so many other diseases in the past along with random deaths of fish kinking up and dying. I have struggled so hard to maintain it, and have poured hundreds of dollars into it. I even once had a 100g that all these fish were in years ago and they never ever got sick unless I was way remiss ina water change! Never! I've been keeping fish for over a decade and I have never had problems like this.

I just don't understand it... I'm just going to have to start from scratch with a larger tank and hopes that helps manage these fish. Since I can narrow down the problem, maybe getting rid of this tank (I bought it used) will take the problem with it. I once even went so far with tank as to bleach the entire thing out. This was more than a year ago.

[Dunga]

hi,

I think good water condition is the most important thing for your fishes now. Stop adding all those chemicals ( a lot you're saying) on the water and make just 20% water changes everyday.

best

Dunga

[Icewall42]

I would very much prefer to do that, but changing the wter spikes the ammonia (unless something in the tap is just giving me a falso positive), and I had fish dying left and right before a single chemical ever touched the tank.

I feel like no matter what I do, nothing fixes the problem. I feel like I've just about tried everything. Medicine was destroying the tank before but it was the only thing that saved the fish and I worked so hard to cycle the tank again after such medications and these things just keep happening, a different disease every single time. If I do nothing but water changes, they will all die.

As you can see, I'm at a total loss.

[Dunga]

Whats your tap PH?
Tap ammonia concentration?
Tank ammonia concentration?
Tank temperature?
Tank PH?
What type of substrate?
Any fertilization?
CO2?
Carbon on filter?

best

Dunga

[Icewall42]

I'm currently at work, but I'll try and answer what I can now:

Whats your tap PH? 7.0 the last time I checked it.

Tap ammonia concentration? I'll find out tonight.

Tank ammonia concentration? Absurdly high. One test puts it at about 100-140ppm (I think... my memory is pretty lousy). Another doesn't give ppm, just a scale of Safe, Caution, Stress, and Toxic, and right now it's at the high end of caution.

Tank temperature? 78-82F. One of the meters is broken, but the tank is lukewarm to the touch so I know that range is accurate.

Tank PH? 6.0 most of the time, occasionally 6.5 when I do water changes.

What type of substrate? Quikrete commercial grade sand tht I stir with every water change.

Any fertilization? I put some fizz tabs with water conditioner and trace elements a few weeks ago, but never before, and never since.

CO2? No CO2 pump. Aeration is pretty heavy in that tank, and live plants are minimal.

Carbon on filter? I added a small Aquaclear carbon bag to the Rena in hopes of clearing the water. I boycotted Rena's carbon bags because they were turning my clowns black--an odd pigment/skin reaction to something else in the bag.

[Dunga]

PH spikes from 6 to 6.5 will stress your fishes a lot.
How many fishes you have on this tank?

[Icewall42]

About 15. A couple are very tiny otos, another is a pretty small golden dojo, and the rest are clown loaches. One is 13 years old at 11", another is 10" and 7-8 years old, and the rest are much smaller at about 3-4".

The pH change is another reason I don't like to do many water changes. I can't say for sure if it spikes that much as I would have to do further testing, but it is almost always at 6.0. Also, diseases occur weaks after a change--almost never right after. I usually use Stress Coat to condition the new water instead of Prime.

[Diana]

OK, Where is the ammonia coming from?

WHY does the ammonia spike in the tank after a water change?

Ammonia in the tap water can come from a couple of common sources, and probably some less common sources:

Chloramines, added by the water company will break down to chlorine and ammonia with dechlorinator. Then the dechlor ought to lock up both. (Prime does lock up both). The ammonia may still show on the test (depends on which test- research the test and the declor at the web site for each product).

Agricultural waste can contribute ammonia (and nitrite and nitrate) to wells, lakes and rivers. Levels of the various nitrogen products can get so high the water is toxic.

Other sources- ?

If there is some way of removing the ammonia before it gets to the tank this would be better than adding the ammonia, and doing the treatments in the tank, while the fish are exposed to the ammonia:

~Reverse Osmosis. Removes the ammonia, and just about everything else. Add minerals back to the water before using it in the tanks.

~Filter with Zeolite and Activated Carbon before using it. (Circulate the tap water in a large garbage can at least overnight, perhaps longer)

~Treat the tap water with a dechlorinator that will break the chlorine-ammonia bond, but NOT lock up the ammonia, then circulate the water, in a large container, exposed to the sun for a day or 2. Ammonia is a gas, and may leave the water. (Chlorine may also leave the water, but most declors will lock up chlorine, and I do not know if this will out gas)

~Treat it in a tank with enough light to really grow the plants, both submerged and emersed.

You could combine these methods, and you should still add an ammonia locking product AFTER any of these treatments to bind any lingering ammonia.

Cleaning the tank and all equipment with chlorine is a good way to kill most pathogens, but not Mycobacteriosis. Rubbing alcohol is the product that kills this one. Not saying this is what your fish have, just noting that chlorine does not kill everything.

Biozyme also does not have the proper species of nitrifying bacteria. The extremely limited success you have had with 'bacteria in a bottle' products is typical. Almost all have the wrong bacteria.

Plants need at least 1 watt per gallon of light, and my plants really did not take off until I had something closer to 2 wph over the tanks. If plants are not surviving in this tank then they may be contributing to the problem: as they die they rot, adding ammonia to the tank.

A fully cycled tank ought to have enough bacteria to handle the ammonia that enters the tank from a water change, if that ammonia is from chloramines. The dechlor locks it up so the fish are safe, and the bacteria can still get to work on it, and remove it. Your 30 gallon tank is behaving like this.

[Icewall42]

These are definitely great suggestions to manage tap ammonia--I have suspected for a long time that our tap has a lot of hazardous runoff, as we get our water out of a river that was once heavily polluted (but supposedly better now). I'll test the tap to see if anything is going on with it.

The tank itself is pretty bright. I don't know the exact wattage, but it's a brighter aquarium light. I've been trying to add low-light plants but they either get eaten or they just don't do well. The 30g sits on a window sill, so it's tank light is very weak but it gets a lot of natural light. Contributes to a permanent algae problem, but some live plants groww really well. the wendtii and the amazon are doing pretty fantastic.

What you mentioned about the bacteria really cocnerns me. I wonder now if the bleaching in fact did not kill all of the bacteria, and if my lingering problems are somehow related to this--to the bacteria that survived. The intervals of health and sickness are becoming pretty regular, once every month or every couple of months. I wonder if this coincides with some sort of life cycle? or a cycle of treatment and dormancy?

One way or another, I think I might need the bigger tank in case the ammonia is coming from the fish.

I have actually only started trying to use cycling products recently. For many years, I had no problems with getting a tank to cycle all on its own.

[chefkeith]

For the Ammonia test are you using a Salicylate or Nessler based test kit?
Nessler tests give the total ammonia reading, while Salicylate gives the free ammonia reading.

Also what is the ammonia reading of the tap water before and after you treat it with ammolock, stress coat, prime, or whatever you use?

Are you getting any nitrates? If the nitrates are escalating, then atleast one of the filters is cycled.

Have you been monitoring the TDS? Has the TDS stayed consistent?
Bacterial problems are usually related to stress caused from water chemistry inconsistencies and/or poor water quality.

If the filters aren't cycled, then lets figure out why. Are the Bacteria getting everything they need? Are they getting Oxygen, Ammonia, and Carbon? I'm not talking about activated carbon either. CO2 is one form of carbon. Raising the KH with Sodium bicarbonate can help fix carbon problems too.

The pH needs to be in a certain range for the bacteria to thrive also. If the kH isn't high enough, then the pH will be too low for the bacteria to thrive.

Is the biomedia getting enough water flow and ammonia? How do you have the filter media arranged in the canister filter starting from the bottom? Could it be getting bypassed somehow?

To fix everything, I'd probably start using RO water and add the minerals needed by hand. I'd keep the TDS as consistent as possible. The fish will almost certainly respond well once the water chemistry is consistent and of higher quality.

[Icewall42]

We tested the plain tap and it was at .75ppm ammonia. That seems pretty normal to me, so that can't be causing the trouble. I went ahead and changed 25-30% of the water. Continuing to medicate with Furan-2.

The Rena is set up thus: 2 coarse sponges and 2 fine sponges in the bottom compartment, biostars and zeolite bag in the middle, biostars and carbon bag in the top. The bags might be getting somewhat bypassed--I might need to eventially use something else or make new ones. Otherwise, bypass is very limited.

The Magnum is stuffed full of large stones that are suppsoed to be used as absorbers. The canister is sleeved with a foam filter.

I believe my nitrates were high at 40-80ppm, and my nitrites were absolute zero. The tank has zero carbonate hardness, but general hardness is at maxium. It has actually been that way for many years--the pH has also been consistently 6.0 for many years. TDS I haven't closely monitored, but I checked recently and it was at about 1000ppm because I had dosed the tank with salt in hopes of destressing one of the fish to get him eating again. It seems to have helped.

2 clowns died yesterday, the rest are still alive but 2 look pretty sluggish. 1 I dipped in meth blue (following the instructions on the bottle) and I'm hoping he has since stabilized.

I need a larger tank anyhow, I think. I believe the 72g is just too small, and I've had problems with it since day one. Hopefully I can set this new tank up properly with all of the wonderful suggestions here. I think it will help to have more space for the fish, and to start anew to make sure I do it right. I've just never had so much trouble setting up a tank, they almost always cycled on their own The new one will be stocked with far more plants, even if I have to order them online.

I have a feeling that the 72g is getting plenty of ammonia. As for the tests, I need to check and see exactly what they are.

What do I need to do to start using RO water? Is there a faucet filter that can be used?

[chefkeith]

Most RO units that I know of connect directly to the plumbing, usually under the kitchen sink. I'm not sure if there is one that connects to a faucet.


You'll need to do something about the KH. You can just use Baking Soda to raise it. Diana has posted a few times about the the dosage needed. You might want to search for that. You'll need to add it slowly so that the fish can acclimate to it.

I'm not sure what GH at maximum is, but it sounds pretty high. I'd be very weary about that. The water chemistry really sounds like it is the root to the problems.

[Icewall42]

What concerns me is that I never tested for kH before now, so I don't know what is ever used to be. It must have been present, because there is some kH present in the 30g. I'll look up the baking soda method.

I've considered for some time trying to use a water softening pillow. I haven't been too worried about it because these fish have thrived in it for 7+ years. When I said maximum, it shows up purple on the the test trips I was using. I think for the new tank I will try to slowly step it down for the sake of balance, but again, my fish never seemed to have a problem with it.

I know the ammonia is a problem so I'm working hard to remedy it--hopefully, again, the extra space will help. The Rena is rated for up to 170g I believe, the Magnum at 100g, so that should be sufficient.

Even if the fish do eat all my plants, I'll try and plant it what what has worked in the past (although I still believe they only worked with luck).