New here and need help fast! Kuhli loach problem

[Louise]

Hello everyone I'm new and I've been trying to get this question answered for at least 2 months if not longer and I'm hoping someone here can.

I started out with 6 kuhlis and every time I do a water change they start to float and can't come back down to the gravel, almost like dropsy. The only time they do this is when I change my water. I make sure my water is the same temp, I treat with Prime and nothing but new fish water touch this bucket. My other fish all seem fine except the Harlequins will gasp for 30 seconds when I add my last bucket.

I have a 25 g aquarium and do a 50% water change every week. I tried doing a 20% water change and it didn't help.

My next problem is that my loaches seem to have seizures. They go stiff or curl up and next thing I know they are dead. What oh what could be causing this??? I even have an oto fish in there that's having an easier time of it!

My water params are ammonia 0 nitrites 0 nitrites approx 5

Any help would be appreciated as I love my fish and really get worked up when I watch them die.

Thanks!

[BotiaMaximus]

I'm not the expert on this, but something is obviously wrong beyond those parameters.

Are you testing after you add the Prime to verify the ammonia and nitrite is really out? My water changes and sometimes it takes more Prime than the directions indicate to get the levels to zero.

It could be a big change in PH - are you checking that? or hardness GH/KH?

Big shifts in this will cause problems - big ones. Are you doing anything to try and adjust PH or hardness?

Osmotic shock - do you have salt in your tank? Are you trying to add salt? Home water softener that uses salt?

Possible pesticide contamination of bucket, or other chemical - get a new bucket for safety - to eliminate the possibility.

I would get answers to all these questions ready with complete tests from your tank water and your tap water before treating, plus list anything you are adding to the tap water or tank water.

With this info posted someone with more experience than myself should be able to help you quickly.

Best of luck.

[Louise]

I test my water regularly especially when problems arise. I've talked to someone from Seachem and it's not my PH nor my tap water.

I'm not doing anything to change the chemistry of my water in any way except to add Prime.

Water hardness I have the kit but haven't checked. What would I be checking for? Big changes from before and after water changes? I don't know...

I have no salt in my tank or any medications. No pesticides or anything else where I store my bucket and don't forget I have other fish in there and they are fine. Even an Oto and boy they are hard to keep!

I did speak to someone at the pet store today and the seizures could be due to food going bad in the tank. That makes sense and I'll watch that diligently. The one problem NO ONE can help with is the "floating"

Thanks for your time it's much appreciated!

[BotiaMaximus]

The floating was what was making me think the osmotic shock or something to that effect. I am not the expert on here with chemistry, but I know what all to start testing for, and that having all the answers ready is crucial for when you do get hold of an expert.

There is a lady on here named Diana - she is a water genius - hopefully she sees this post.

GH/KH are the two types of water hardness, GH is the general hardness - basically what minerals and salts are in your water. KH is the hardness buffer so to say - what's been added to stabilize the hardness. This part goes deep so I won't bother with all of it.

The important part is that a big change is this can cause big problems for SOME fish - loaches are sensitive - I'm not familiar with you other fish.

Your water hardness parameters could have made a change because something changed with the water your city water supply was receiving so they had to adjust treatment.

You definitely need to know the PH / GH / KH of your tap water - and of the water in your tank. If they are not the same - do not do the water change. The tap can be adjusted to match - but that will require another discussion.

That is a start.

There is a FAQ at the top of this Health forum that lists the other things they like you to have the info ready on to make an accurate diagnosis.

Hope this is helping.

It seems for now that since things get worse during the water change - just hold tight until you get a good idea of the problem. I know it is tough when you know your fish are in distress.

[chefkeith]

Sounds like a TDS or osmotic shock problem. Or maybe the tap water is gassing off like crazy. 50% is really a huge water change especially if the water parameters are different from tap to tank. If it's a gassing off problem, you'll need to let the tap water age prior to water changes so it can gas off.

The fish are best off with small frequent water changes. With small tanks, I usually will do several small water changes back to back instead of doing one large water change.

Testing the water with a TDS meter is the easiest way for figuring out if it's a TDS/osmotic shock problem. These little pocket meters will tell you how much conductive stuff is dissolved in the water. The cause for TDS problems is usually leaching substrate, sand, or rocks or too much evaporation. But sometimes it's the tap water that has changed.

Can you take a picture of the tank and post it for us? That might help.

[Louise]

I've never heard of osmotic shock before so ok maybe I'm headed in the right direction. I only have 3 kuhlis left and one keeps having spasms.

GH in aquarium is 0-60 soft
GH in tap water is 61- 100 slightly hard

KG hardness in tank is in the 20-80 mg/l low phh
kg hardness in tap water is IDENTICAL!

I do have a picture of my aquarium but it's taken from far and very small. It's a planted aquarium with lots of hiding places for my loaches.

I hope I've answered everything....

Thanks!

Lou

[BotiaMaximus]

Those are very broad numbers for GH/KH

What type of test kit are you using?

GH and KH should be a single number such as 6 - not 0-6. 0-6 is a HUGE range.

If you are using test strips I know they are not very accurate. Usually the liquid based kits are the accurate ones. I use the API brand freshwater test kits.

MY GH and KH are both 7 and my PH is 7.5. This indicates hard water and a slightly high PH for loaches - however fish are adaptable to those conditions and do very well in fact. It is Changes in those conditions that cause shock.

Ideally your GH and KH will be the same indicating your water is properly buffered and not subject to rapid change from waste in your tank and things such as that.

I suspect that this difference is the problem, but can't confirm for sure without a more accurate reading.

Let me know what type of test kit you have, and if it is possible for you to get or borrow the good type if that isn't what you have.

I will try to summon up an expert in the mean time.

Hang in there

[Louise]

I'm now down to 2 loaches. The one having the spasms is still around, not for much longer I don't think but I found another dead under decorations. I'm beyond devastated. I bought fish so I could give them a good home and make them happy. Instead they are miserable and dying and I don't even know why.

[Louise]

I use the Hagen liquid test kits. That was the best they had to offer.
I have to multipy the # of drops I put in by 20 so 3 drops X 20 = 60 for the GH in tank and 80 for tap water in my case.

For the KG I have to go 3 X 10 for a reading of 30. Then there is a conversion table I simply do NOT understand

it says Multiply GH or KH by .056 = dh or Gh x by .07 = Clark H x by .1 - fh x by 1 = hardness and finally x by .02 = mEq/L

What????

Hope this helps because I can't make heads or tails out of it.

[BotiaMaximus]

That sounds like too much math! I don't blame you for being confused.

The GH difference between 6 in the tank and 8 in the tap is a start though.

Sounds like your water is softening in the tank. It could be that your water isn't well buffered (KH) or that you need a very good gravel cleaning and water changes.

All this needs to happen slowly though - going from 6 to 8 in GH might be enough alone to cause the shock.

Try just leaving everything alone for now - that will be the least amount of rapid change you can offer them until we have a solution.

I have to go to the office for a few, hopefully someone will have added in some options by then.

[Diana]

GH is a measure of calcium and magnesium.
KH is a measure of carbonates. This is a buffer that keeps the pH stable.
Both these can be measured in many ways. The two most common scales are parts per million (ppm) and German degrees of hardness.

It sounds like your test is reporting results in ppm. A possible range from 0 to 60 ppm is not so big, but it really should be finer than that.
To convert ppm to German degrees of hardness divide by 17.9
60 ppm = just over 3 degrees.

GH is the most important of these readings for the fish. When you are changing the water, or moving the fish to a new tank you want to make sure the GH is not more than 1 degree lower or 2 degrees higher than the water the fish was used to.
In ppm: You want the new water to be not more than 18ppm softer or 36 ppm harder than the original water. (Fish can handle slightly harder water easier than slightly softer water)

With the difference showing in your tap vs tank GH you might be making the new water (the mix of new + tank) water too different for the fish. As suggested above, try water changes of not more than 25% for a while, you may need to do more of them, such as every couple of days, rather than a 50% once a week.

I also thought of gas embolism when I saw the symptoms.
Tap water may have gas (nitrogen, oxygen...) dissolved in it while it is under pressure in the tap. When the pressure is released the gasses become bubbles the same way you see bubbles in soda pop. You open the lid (release the pressure) and bubbles form on the walls of the bottle. Pour that soda into a glass and get a lot more bubbles.
In an aquarium these bubbles cause problems for the fish.
The very easy solution is to run the tap water into the bucket where you prep the water for a water change and let it sit for a while.
If you have any sort of small pump to gently circulate the water this can help it out gas faster. Without a pump I would let the water sit overnight. With a pump it could be ready for a water change in a couple of hours. Add Prime at any time during this prep, it does not matter when it is added.

[Louise]

Ok I will try to let the water sit for a day before changing. I find it strange that I would need a good gravel vacuuming as I do one every week and I'm very thorough. Maybe my tank is just too new I've had this one set up for about 4 months.

I looked at my calendar and I've had my loaches for 3 months and have been dealing with this floating problem for 3 months. Now I'm down to 2 loaches and one is having spasms and can't seem to uncurl. I put it under the bubbler to see if oxygen might help and it seems to a bit but then the spasms start over. It's very sad to see but I don't want to kill him in case he pulls through. I've already had to decapitate a gourami this weekend because he was dying it's not fun.

Any other ideas would be welcome. Oh and I did try a 20% water change with the same results, floating loaches.

thanks again. hope I have some loaches left tomorrow

[BotiaMaximus]

It sounds like Diana's suggestion of gas embolism makes sense. That is the other term I was looking for. I would try what she recommends. Get some water mixed up and let it sit out overnight. If it cools too much you can bring it up to tank temp by setting the bucket in your sink or tub in hot water and stirring till the temp is right. Treat with Prime and do the change a bucket at a time. Maybe if you can get another bucket and do this method 2 at a time every day for several days, even a week provided it is showing improvement.

If you are doing good gravel vacs then that shouldn't be a problem, and don't overdo it while you are doing lots of water changes (I wouldn't even do it if it has already been done this week). Same with your filters. Once again you don't want to change too much at once. This might also weaken your biological filter to be cleaning them all at the same time.

There is also the fact of your other fish which are doing OK. This could be a combination problem you are experiencing as well. Your fish that were already in the tank might have been somewhat used to the not so right conditions with the water chemistry and had adapted, whereas this was a huge change for your loaches and just too much for them to take on combined with the stress of the tank move as well. It also could just plain be that these were not healthy loaches.

Did the loaches go into shock as soon as you added them to the tank, or where they ok at first, and then went into shock after the first water change? That will tell you if something was already wrong, or if something went wrong.

You have to be very methodical and it doesn't hurt to keep a running note pad going during a crisis with times and dates and everything you do and what the water test readings are at each of those times. It can be a pain to establish your conditions, but once you do it is usually fairly easy to come up with a solution to correct them.

My water is far from perfect, I have to age and pre-filter it for three days to get the Nitrites and Nitrates out of it, plus the Chloramine as well. Luckily my water is consistent and therefore my routine is very predictable.

Best of luck, and I'm watching your posting. Feel free to ask questions. Like I said before - I'm not a pro - but I will help or find you some if I can't.

[Diana]

Gravel vacuuming is an on-going need, so keep it up! Frequency depends on how many fish are in the tank, and how fast the debris accumulates.
The debris is decomposing food and fish waste, and the decomposing organisms remove some oxygen from the tank, but not much.
However, the load of organic matter can affect medications, if you need to use anything. Best to keep the tank relatively clean.

I find that the tap water in my local area has more dissolved gas when the weather is cooler; so much that I do have to let the water stand (I use a pump) before use. In the summer it seems to be less of a problem.

[BotiaMaximus]

I gravel vac every other water change, or a real gravel vac anyhow. 1 time its a water change with a gravel mini vac. Then the next a full vac with the water change. Then filters on between days. My ammonia and nitrite never spike on me - they are always zero - I check daily.

Is it safe to go more aggressive on the vacs??