I have been having more persistent ich problems and recently read an article in the Feb 2010 issue of
aquarium Fish International about using quinine for ich. Has anyone done this? I went ahead and ordered some, but would appreciate any opinions.
The current crew in the Qtank are three lovely little clowns that I was hoping to move to Larry's tank soon (not now, though). Had them there for three weeks treating for internal parasites before the ich presented itself. I successfully (or so I thought) treated that with the usual (increased temp, rid ich - full strength, daily 25% water changes and a UV sterilizer) for about 10 days,
All looked fine, but then I took the UV sterilizer out to do the next round of parasite treatment (prazipro), and now there is one white spot on the smallest of the three. I have been out of town again but I think it has only been there a day or two and the fish is acting fine.
I mean GEEZ.... ???!
I abosultely LOVE these fish, and have the tank size to give them a GREAT home....okay, done venting. Any opinion would be welcome.
quinine for ich
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I have heard of it, for a more stubborn strain of Ich.
I have been wondering if the UV sterilizer has any effect on the medication, perhaps breaking it down before it has done its job. The UV by itself is not perfect, either.
I have been wondering if the UV sterilizer has any effect on the medication, perhaps breaking it down before it has done its job. The UV by itself is not perfect, either.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.
Happy fish keeping!
Happy fish keeping!
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cloudhands
- Posts: 79
- Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:15 am
- Location: Vermont
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For whatever it's worth, our current Q tank policy (especially given the quality of one of our local fish stores) is to assume ich exposure at the pet store, and treat for ich as soon as the fish come home, before any other treatment. My thinking is that this can be a shorter treatment, assuming that no ich is already present in the Q tank. Then we're only dealing with parasites coming off the new fish, and that first batch of possible tomonts that manage to settle through the medication. It's only half the cycle to worry about.
Then, after a week of prophylactic ich meds at full dose, we treat for parasites.
The only problem with this approach is that sensitive Amazon fish might also be fighting columnaris after the move too.
Then, after a week of prophylactic ich meds at full dose, we treat for parasites.
The only problem with this approach is that sensitive Amazon fish might also be fighting columnaris after the move too.
Catching it that fast, before symptoms show up is the best. As you note there are not then the multiple stages to have to worry about. By the time Ich has grown big enough to see some might have already fallen off the fish.
Important also not to put the water from the bag in the tank. If a store has Ich in the tanks it will be there in all stages, including the free swimming stage.
Important also not to put the water from the bag in the tank. If a store has Ich in the tanks it will be there in all stages, including the free swimming stage.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.
Happy fish keeping!
Happy fish keeping!
Q tank
I agree with the presumption of "ich until proven otherwise" given the sheer volume of ich I have dealt with in what looked like healthy fish. I KNOW my Qtank was sterile to begin with, so I think it is just the nature of the beast (maybe?).
I have been doing a treatment with quick-cure x 1 at purchase when I bring them home, then WAITING to do a course of rid-ich when I see the first spots. That has allowed me to get a course of fenben flake food in, then treat for ich, then take out the UV sterilizer and use the prazipro.
I guess I will change my regimen to be:
1. full course of ich treatment
2. a couple days rest if looking healthy
3. parasite #1 (fenben flake food)
4. maracyn 1,2
5. parasite #2 (prazipro)
6. watch for a couple of weeks
My sister, who also has fish, thinks I am a freak and that I force my fish to "live in syrup for weeks"
Is this overkill? I think she just does not understand the nature of loaches, which she does not have.
I have been doing a treatment with quick-cure x 1 at purchase when I bring them home, then WAITING to do a course of rid-ich when I see the first spots. That has allowed me to get a course of fenben flake food in, then treat for ich, then take out the UV sterilizer and use the prazipro.
I guess I will change my regimen to be:
1. full course of ich treatment
2. a couple days rest if looking healthy
3. parasite #1 (fenben flake food)
4. maracyn 1,2
5. parasite #2 (prazipro)
6. watch for a couple of weeks
My sister, who also has fish, thinks I am a freak and that I force my fish to "live in syrup for weeks"
Is this overkill? I think she just does not understand the nature of loaches, which she does not have.
glenna
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cloudhands
- Posts: 79
- Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:15 am
- Location: Vermont
- Contact:
Some of the ideas here came from skeptical aquarist, but I cannot seem to get there, now. Good section in his health section on protozoan parasites.
Well, lets think this through:
It is known that the shock to the fish (purchase, transport, acclimate to new tank) can make Ich fall off prematurely. I think it can then breed, but maybe not so successfully (hundreds instead of thousands of babies?). There is the suspicion that Ich can reproduce while it is still on the fish, too.
So lets look at 'worst case':
An Ich landed on the fish in the store long enough ago (several days or a week) that it is ready to fall off the fish. Also, some Ich got on the fish right before you bought them. Then there was also Ich theronts in the water, and you tried not to transfer them, but some came along, anyway. (You did not dry off the fish, and there were a few in that film of water).
In this case, within minutes of adding the fish to the tank you have all three stages of Ich. Not a big population of any of it, but some.
The ones that fall off the fish right away need to spend a day or more on the floor of the tank before releasing tomites. So here you have say a day to get the meds in the tank. (But get it in there right away). Some Ich this mature might be hiding in the gills and you would not see them.
The ones that are young and still on the fish will be there for a while, so do not stop the meds too soon. These are the ones that might be too small, or hidden in the gills so the fish looks free of the pests.
The babies that came in with the water are looking for a host, so get the meds in there right away.
Sorry, It looks to me that even bringing the fish home from the store, and looking free of Ich you are still better off treating for the full time.
Well, lets think this through:
It is known that the shock to the fish (purchase, transport, acclimate to new tank) can make Ich fall off prematurely. I think it can then breed, but maybe not so successfully (hundreds instead of thousands of babies?). There is the suspicion that Ich can reproduce while it is still on the fish, too.
So lets look at 'worst case':
An Ich landed on the fish in the store long enough ago (several days or a week) that it is ready to fall off the fish. Also, some Ich got on the fish right before you bought them. Then there was also Ich theronts in the water, and you tried not to transfer them, but some came along, anyway. (You did not dry off the fish, and there were a few in that film of water).
In this case, within minutes of adding the fish to the tank you have all three stages of Ich. Not a big population of any of it, but some.
The ones that fall off the fish right away need to spend a day or more on the floor of the tank before releasing tomites. So here you have say a day to get the meds in the tank. (But get it in there right away). Some Ich this mature might be hiding in the gills and you would not see them.
The ones that are young and still on the fish will be there for a while, so do not stop the meds too soon. These are the ones that might be too small, or hidden in the gills so the fish looks free of the pests.
The babies that came in with the water are looking for a host, so get the meds in there right away.
Sorry, It looks to me that even bringing the fish home from the store, and looking free of Ich you are still better off treating for the full time.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.
Happy fish keeping!
Happy fish keeping!
-
cloudhands
- Posts: 79
- Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:15 am
- Location: Vermont
- Contact:
The way I think of it (and I may well be wrong):
The (almost) worst case is that the parasite got on the fish right before they netted the fish at the fish store. The parasite is happily sucking on the fish as you bring it home and put it in the medicated water. That will stay on the fish for four days max in the already and continually medicated 80 degree F water, and then it will drop off. As it drops off it may be vulnerable to the meds, but lets assume it manages to encyst. We'll give it another 4 days on the bottom of the tank. Then it opens up and the swarmers die. That's 8 days, so give it 9 just for safety.
The very worst case is that it's a rare variety of ich can encyst and reinfect the fish without entering the medicated water. In that case you're in big trouble anyway, and standard ich medication won't help.
We've been doing 8 or 9 days at 80 degrees even after getting fish from our LFS that we call "the ich store." We really try not to buy anything from there, but everything else is far away, and they do have a pretty good selection for a rural pet store. Lots of loach varieties and at reasonable prices: darios, kubotai, dojo, kuhlies, horse face, sidthimunki, yoyo, berdmori, and probably more. We even found our sumo there, probably shipped as an "oops." At this store though it's not uncommon to see dead fish in the tanks and to see badly ich-spotted fish or fish flashing -- and all with common sump filtered water.
After the 8 or 9 days of full dose rid-ich (and a full dose has not harmed any of our loaches) we keep them in the Q tank for a considerable time after that to treat with a few rounds for internal parasites. So we get a chance to observe for any emergence of ich.
Since we've been doing this, knock wood, ich has not been a problem at all. We've sometimes struggled with columnaris on Amazon fish, and a few skinny loaches have not seemed to respond so well to the de-wormer (a couple of skinny sids). It's worked for ich though.
But oh I'm afraid of it. Especially now that we're moving into a very big tank. What a nightmare it would be to treat that whole thing with huge water changes.
The (almost) worst case is that the parasite got on the fish right before they netted the fish at the fish store. The parasite is happily sucking on the fish as you bring it home and put it in the medicated water. That will stay on the fish for four days max in the already and continually medicated 80 degree F water, and then it will drop off. As it drops off it may be vulnerable to the meds, but lets assume it manages to encyst. We'll give it another 4 days on the bottom of the tank. Then it opens up and the swarmers die. That's 8 days, so give it 9 just for safety.
The very worst case is that it's a rare variety of ich can encyst and reinfect the fish without entering the medicated water. In that case you're in big trouble anyway, and standard ich medication won't help.
We've been doing 8 or 9 days at 80 degrees even after getting fish from our LFS that we call "the ich store." We really try not to buy anything from there, but everything else is far away, and they do have a pretty good selection for a rural pet store. Lots of loach varieties and at reasonable prices: darios, kubotai, dojo, kuhlies, horse face, sidthimunki, yoyo, berdmori, and probably more. We even found our sumo there, probably shipped as an "oops." At this store though it's not uncommon to see dead fish in the tanks and to see badly ich-spotted fish or fish flashing -- and all with common sump filtered water.
After the 8 or 9 days of full dose rid-ich (and a full dose has not harmed any of our loaches) we keep them in the Q tank for a considerable time after that to treat with a few rounds for internal parasites. So we get a chance to observe for any emergence of ich.
Since we've been doing this, knock wood, ich has not been a problem at all. We've sometimes struggled with columnaris on Amazon fish, and a few skinny loaches have not seemed to respond so well to the de-wormer (a couple of skinny sids). It's worked for ich though.
But oh I'm afraid of it. Especially now that we're moving into a very big tank. What a nightmare it would be to treat that whole thing with huge water changes.
ichy ichy
This has been a GREAT discussion!
I am fairly satisfied with my current regimen, but would appreciate something MORE efficient/effective. I am anticipating the arrival of this quinine (it was NOT cheap!). I do not KNOW how it will work, but right now, clearing even a 10 gallon Q tank of ich is pretty labor intensive. I am hoping it will provide at least another tool in the anti-ich armamentarium. Each time I do the full dose rid ich, temp, water change, UV sterilizer protocol it REALLY worries me:....what if this doesn't WORK!?
I will post how this works. Right now the little guy still has his one white spot, no one else has any notable signs of disease, and all are acting normally and fighting over their shrimp pellet as we speak!
I am fairly satisfied with my current regimen, but would appreciate something MORE efficient/effective. I am anticipating the arrival of this quinine (it was NOT cheap!). I do not KNOW how it will work, but right now, clearing even a 10 gallon Q tank of ich is pretty labor intensive. I am hoping it will provide at least another tool in the anti-ich armamentarium. Each time I do the full dose rid ich, temp, water change, UV sterilizer protocol it REALLY worries me:....what if this doesn't WORK!?
I will post how this works. Right now the little guy still has his one white spot, no one else has any notable signs of disease, and all are acting normally and fighting over their shrimp pellet as we speak!
glenna
125 gallon set up yet?
I'll bet you'll be sorry you asked that question!
So I am a little (LOL!) OCD and have been losing sleep over the disaster that happened (Even if it was NOTHING like Katy and Cloudhands' disaster, where fish actually lost their lives)
Anyway, I have been doing a "little construction" in the living room. It was only yesterday since I got the tile enclosure done and an emergency drain installed ( it goes under the house, then out into the yard). I was out of town last weekend, and this week was VERY, VERY busy at work. I am DYING to post some pictures, so I promise I will do so TOMORROW! Of course, it will only be the BEFORE pictures of the tile tray where the tank stand will sit, and the drain......:<(.....booo! )
The store where I got the tank, et al, and the stand is in Raleigh NC, which is about an hour away from my small town. It is hard to get them to drive an HOUR to come set up the tank AGAIN, but they are willing to do it. I just have to be somewhat flexible and I am REALLY GETTING impatient. Not with them, they have been great, but all my fluorite and stone is in a big pile in the garage. My driftwood was frozen in a big block of ice on the deck (it has finally thawed). I was hoping to have at least a start on some great plants by now...
The manager of the fish store is trying for this weekend, but is having a hard time finding someone to run the store when he is gone. They have been really great (they should be, as I have spent more than a couple of bucks there), so I will just have to wait. When you see the pictures tomorrow (I will post on the regular loach forum), you will see how sad my poor, poor living room is looking.
I still think it will be GREAT eventually. The best part is my little scruffy dog right now.
Of course, Larry is in the 75 gallon on the bedroom, fighting to protect his algae wafer from any intruders! He has no idea that his new digs are on delay!
So I am a little (LOL!) OCD and have been losing sleep over the disaster that happened (Even if it was NOTHING like Katy and Cloudhands' disaster, where fish actually lost their lives)
Anyway, I have been doing a "little construction" in the living room. It was only yesterday since I got the tile enclosure done and an emergency drain installed ( it goes under the house, then out into the yard). I was out of town last weekend, and this week was VERY, VERY busy at work. I am DYING to post some pictures, so I promise I will do so TOMORROW! Of course, it will only be the BEFORE pictures of the tile tray where the tank stand will sit, and the drain......:<(.....booo! )
The store where I got the tank, et al, and the stand is in Raleigh NC, which is about an hour away from my small town. It is hard to get them to drive an HOUR to come set up the tank AGAIN, but they are willing to do it. I just have to be somewhat flexible and I am REALLY GETTING impatient. Not with them, they have been great, but all my fluorite and stone is in a big pile in the garage. My driftwood was frozen in a big block of ice on the deck (it has finally thawed). I was hoping to have at least a start on some great plants by now...
The manager of the fish store is trying for this weekend, but is having a hard time finding someone to run the store when he is gone. They have been really great (they should be, as I have spent more than a couple of bucks there), so I will just have to wait. When you see the pictures tomorrow (I will post on the regular loach forum), you will see how sad my poor, poor living room is looking.
I still think it will be GREAT eventually. The best part is my little scruffy dog right now.
Of course, Larry is in the 75 gallon on the bedroom, fighting to protect his algae wafer from any intruders! He has no idea that his new digs are on delay!
glenna
Re: 125 gallon set up yet?
glenna wrote: So I am a little (LOL!) OCD ...
Anyway, I have been doing a "little construction" in the living room. It was only yesterday since I got the tile enclosure done and an emergency drain installed ( it goes under the house, then out into the yard).
LOL. I've been wondering what we could do to "catch" fish in case of another disaster -- make sure they end up in at least a little water! Have come up with all sorts of crazy ideas, but so far nothing that seems practical....
Sounds great! We just got our floor jacks (had to special order short ones) so hopefully floor will get shored up and we'll start filling the tank this weekend. Looks like we are going to be on similar schedules!
Mr Cloudhands was just saying that our loaches don't do the loachy dance so much now, but I bet we'll see a lot of it when they more into their new digs!
Looking forward to seeing your photos!
Part of the problem of dealing with Ich is its long, drawn out life cycle, and how well protected most phases are from treatment. Since Ich can be somewhat hidden on the fish it is entirely possible that it will be found in pretty much all phases of its life when you finally do see it. At that point, keeping the treatment up for something close to 2+ full cycles, just to make sure that the slowest maturing individuals will get treated (well, their babies will get treated) simply takes time.
Double check that the quinine based medicine is not light sensitive. If it is light sensitive then turn off the UV sterilizer.
Double check that the quinine based medicine is not light sensitive. If it is light sensitive then turn off the UV sterilizer.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.
Happy fish keeping!
Happy fish keeping!
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