Someone please help - clowns still not well...

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tmcmullen
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Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:28 pm

Post by tmcmullen » Sat Apr 24, 2010 2:14 pm

I am now seeing spots on my clowns. They aren't salt-like, they are just grayish-white spots and most of them are in a small cluster in areas on their bodies. At least 3 of the four have these spots. I am treating with MarOxy. Any suggestions?

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chefkeith
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Post by chefkeith » Sat Apr 24, 2010 10:30 pm

So now your using MarOxy, Coppersafe, and Salt? I don't know if mixing the 3 is safe or not. That's unchartered territory for me. I really don't know what to tell you. Good luck, I really hope it works. Any chance you can take some pictures of the fish and of these white spots so that we can get a better idea of what is going on?

tmcmullen
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Post by tmcmullen » Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:35 am

No, I'm sorry, I should have said that I stopped the coppersafe because shortly after starting it the clowns were breathing even more rapidly, so I panicked, put in the carbon and did a water change. I waited a few days before adding MarOxy for fear of over medicating. I was thinking everything was starting to look good, but then noticed the spots and my clowns flashing.

I'll try to post pics tomorrow.

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soul-hugger
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Post by soul-hugger » Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:21 am

Hi..,

I'm sorry there's not much more I can offer in the way of help.., but just want to say, I hope you get this sorted out. After such a big move it's a lot to go through, especially when it means treating everything in a brand new tank. I think sometimes diseases can wait in the wings for an opportunity to strike when the fishes' immune systems are low. The move must have been hard on them.

I feel bad for you because this makes it difficult for you to sit back and enjoy the new tank like you should be doing right now.

I really hope everything works out.

soul-hugger
Success is measured by the amount of obstacles you have overcome.

tmcmullen
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Post by tmcmullen » Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:44 pm

Thank you soul-hugger. It is very frustrating at this point, and the clowns are my most treasured fish of all of them!

I took some pictures but they don't show the coloration that I'm talking about on the clowns. Their black stripe in the middle of their bodies looks normal, but he black stripe at the base of the tail looks marbled gray and black.

Can I treat with Marcyn2 and MarOxy at the same time?

tmcmullen
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Post by tmcmullen » Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:16 am

I'm crossing my fingers. This morning it looks like the discoloration isn't any worse, and may be better. I wonder if this could be excess slime coat. They're all acting fine otherwise, with the exception of a yoyo who is very pale and lethargic. I can't pinpoint anything that would help figure out what is wrong with him, so hopefully the MarOxy will help.

The only other thing I can add is that my kuhli's are dying. I think they're becoming victim to my other fish though. The rainbows can be aggressive eaters, and they've gone after the Kuhli's in the past. I've lost 3 in one week. The last one had a lump about 3/4 down his body, closer to the tail. He was swimming irradically as if he was in pain. I think someone nipped him. No other signs of illness besides the lump.

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soul-hugger
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Post by soul-hugger » Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:47 pm

Hi again..,

Glad to hear things are looking a little better. I feel somehow a part of what you're doing here because we talked so much when you were deciding on and setting up your new tank.

I looked back at your other posts and something occurred to me. I can't remember you saying what kind of filter you're using on the new tank. If it is a brand new filter, even if you seeded it with material from the mature one, it could take a while to cycle.

If you are using the old one, all the medications could be doing a number on the beneficial bacteria. It is never ideal to have to medicate your main tank, but I understand in this case it's necessary. I've had to do it myself and it was not fun. You have to use so much medication, take out the carbon, and all the daily water changes....UGH!

Try to think about anything that might be different in the new tank versus the old. It could be something very simple. We'll start here, and see if we can find a solution for you. Even if your fish start doing better, it would be nice to know what went wrong.

soul-hugger
Success is measured by the amount of obstacles you have overcome.

tmcmullen
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Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:28 pm

Post by tmcmullen » Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:49 pm

Soul-hugger, I really appreciate your dedication to this! Here are some answers and a few points to see if we can figure anything out.

When I moved to the new tank I used the same old water and old filter. My filter is rated for a 150 gallon tank. I didn't even touch the water in the filter, just unhooked, and then reconnected and turned it on. I added 20 gallons of new water because the old tank was a 55 gallon, and the new tank is 75.

I changed the gravel because the gravel I had wasn't enough, and I wanted to make that change.

I kept the same rocks, driftwood, decorations. Added a new airwall, and a piece of slate rock. Other than that the only other change I can think of is the outtake from the filter flows across the tank now. In the 55 gallon tank it didn't fit along the side of the tank, so I had to set it up so that it aimed the out flow from the back of the tank to the front. Now I have much better current.

I have two air walls that run constantly. I use (and always have used) bioballs and other ceramic media in the filter, ammochips, and carbon. I remove carbon during medicating and after medicating. I refresh carbon monthly. I am using a different carbon than I had been using, but I typically buy whatever is on sale. :)

I'm going to lay it all out on the table here so forgive me if I babble a little. ;) I am thinking maybe I am just overly concerned about the clowns. Most of what I had seen from the day I moved them was that they were breathing hard, not eating, and hiding a lot more than normal. I've been treating them based on these three facts. All three yoyos eat well, but were also breathing hard. If this was a side effect of the nitrite spike I experienced a month ago maybe there's nothing left to do but wait for them to completely recover. If it were a disease maybe they would have died by now.

Since the move I lost one Molly, but I've never been able to keep Mollies, and I found out after adding the last two that my water isn't good for them. I have also lost two Kuhli's but I am pretty sure that was due to the Rainbows going after them, or from getting sucked into the filter!

I've performed regular water changes (sometimes every other day, but at least twice a week lately). Checked the nitrite and nitrate, PH, ammonia, regularly and it's still in good range. I'm seeing the bacteria building up on the filter again like it used to.

That's all I can think of. I've been on top of the readings ever since the move and they are all good. I only had trouble with nitrite for the first 4 days after the move. By the way, I didn't move my home, just upgraded the tank, so we're using the same water.

tmcmullen
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Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:28 pm

Post by tmcmullen » Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:08 pm

I'm going to try to post pics. Let's see if this works. I've only done it once before.

Image
The sick yoyo. He sits here 90% of the time. The other two are very colorful and active.
Image
Three of the clowns hiding from me.

The best picture of two of the affected clowns would not show up in this link. To see this picture please click the link below. You can see obvious light coloring behind the dorsal fin of the bigger clown.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/49654217@N04/4556683604/

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chefkeith
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Post by chefkeith » Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:30 am

Are you sure that light discoloration wasn't there before? Some of my bigger clowns have discoloration like that behind their dorsal fin also. IMO, it's a good sign of growth and maturity.

As for the marbling in the black bands on the smaller loach, you'll just need to be patient and give the loach time to get regrow a nice thick slime coat. The salt you added prohibits slime coat production and will clean blemishes that were underneath the slime coat. Regrowth may take a few weeks or months after any chemical or salt treatments.

Remember you'll need to remove the salt very slowly. It takes about 14 - 20% water changes to remove 95% of the salt in the water.

tmcmullen
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Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:28 pm

Post by tmcmullen » Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:37 am

Chefkeith, I'm positive the light coloring wasn't there before. I've seen that one squeeze out from under the driftwood a few times and I wondered if that could be what is causing the light section behind the dorsal fin.

I'm treating with MarOxy, and after the 5th day of treatment will continue to bring the salt levels down. I want to run the full course of medication.

If things don't improve I'm thinking of treating the tank with Maracyn and Maracyn II at the same time. Before I do that I will wait and watch their progress. They still swim around and I've seen them scavaging for food. They enjoy the company of the black ghost knife.

If the yoyo doesn't improve I may put him in the QT for treatment.

Diana
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Post by Diana » Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:40 pm

Thanks very much for the recap.
The only thing that I can see is that you buy any ol' charcoal.
There are good charcoals and bad as far as aquarium use goes, and if you are going to use it at all you probably ought to use the best. This may not mean the most expensive, but is certainly not the cheapest 'whatever is on sale' stuff.
I will see if I can find some info and link it.

http://www.seachem.com/Library/Articles ... erview.pdf

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/m ... carbon.php
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.

Happy fish keeping!

tmcmullen
Posts: 124
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:28 pm

Post by tmcmullen » Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:07 pm

I had no idea that the brand of carbon would even matter at all! I really just thought that carbon is carbon! I was advised a long time ago that the carbon that pellets were better than the carbon that looks like ground pieces of carbon.

I usually do buy the API brand in the milk carton type box. The one I have now is "Petco brand" and it says pH stable, phosphate-free. The site you linked says:
1) If the labels gives key specifications (porosity, density, ash
and phosphate content) then the supplier likely has nothing
to hide and the carbon is likely a good one.
2) If the carbon boasts no phosphate, then the supplier is
either lying or doesn't know any better. Neither is very reassuring.

I will pay closer attention when I go to the pet store for more carbon!

Diana
Posts: 4675
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:35 am
Location: Near San Franciso

Post by Diana » Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:00 pm

Might be worth searching out an on line source if local stores do not have the right material.

I have noticed the 'slightly skewed' label on more than one product that is aimed at people who do not do any research, or are simply going by old wives' tales.
Many brands, not just store brands, of almost everything cater to rumors about what is good or bad, and splash that info on the label. "Contains.... " "Free of ..." and similar information is common, and may or may not mean anything when you look at the research.

The worst one IMO is the Jungle brand of medicines and water treatments. Several of their products are in a tablet form that bubbles when you add it to the water, sort of like Alka Selzer. The package boldly promises "You know it is working!"
HUMPH! Not very many aqaurium products really work by seeing bubbles. An air pump, yes. But medications???

Oh well. Rant over.

Please do look into locally available carbons, and I hope you find a good one. It will probably not have glitzy packaging, or advertizing slogans, but should have plenty of basic information about the details of the product.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.

Happy fish keeping!

tmcmullen
Posts: 124
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:28 pm

Post by tmcmullen » Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:24 pm

Thanks again Diana, I will definitely do that. I am happy to say (knocking on wood) that everyone in the tank seems to be doing "fine". I am still seeing that discoloration on the back portion of one of the smaller clowns, but I am hopeful that it's slime coat in reaction to the coppersafe.

None of the fish are breathing rapidly any longer. YAY! The yoyo is still lethargic, but brightens up at dinner time. I'm thinking the whole move process just stressed them all too much and it's just taking the yoyo and the clowns longer to become comfortable again.

I've purchased a lunar lighting kit from digikits.com and it's great for seeing the activity while lights are low. Now that the light is in I can see the clowns come out more often, and the black ghost knife too. Here's a picture of the tank with the light on...

Image

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