Ich again

[ahmandi2]

Only showing on the goldens' fins, not bad, but that's what we thought last time right before we lost a golden loach, horribly....
Have a UV filter now, and am treating ICH at 1/3 prescribed with meds, no carbon, lower water level, higher temp, and extra oxygenation. Stats are great in water; testing daily now.
Danios' showing no signs at all. Though one does look like she's got dropsy.
I'd really love a month to go by without fish drama...and this only 3 months into the hobby.....
Not encouraging at all...

[Hokum]

Out of interest did you fish in or fish out cycle? The UV will help and you seem tobe doing everything else ok, but the fact it isn't shifting isn't good. Did you add anything new to the tank?

[starsplitter7]

Don't forget to vacuum a lot. Once you have this under control, don't add any more fish for a while to give your bacteria to grow and make sure your tank is fully cycled. Ick comes out with stress.

Good luck. Sounds like you have things under sontrol.

[ahmandi2]

We cycled using plants & live substrate, I think that's what it's called? And 2 female bettas....
We have added two loaches recently and Mr. Plecostomoose (very small bn)
; I guess it came with them. Mr. P is showing no signs thank god....
Seriously have to get a quarantine tank....money is tight this week though.
I'm just praying that we don't lose anyone this time, especially those loaches or the pleco. That would seriously suck...

[starsplitter7]

Ick can come from fish, but most people have it in their tank all the time. It stays dormant until the fish are stressed, and then it is able to take hold. New fish are very stressed. That's one reason to quarantine them. It gives them a chance to settle in without worrying their new environment will attack them.

[ahmandi2]

Humans, that is...we're exposed to the germs alot, but only when we're already having lower immune systems, will we actually develop it....
I'm really grateful that I had not moved my betta, Sid, into the big tank prior to seeing the ich outbreak...I was planning on doing it that night! He's safe and sound, though, thankfully, it's just the loaches still...
We're vacuuming every day now, to get whatever ich things are in the gravel or water; not violently since we don't want to spook the fishies any more than we already have.....

[ahmandi2]

Ok so no other fish have had any ich symptoms at all this time. The golden dojo still has the spots on her tail. I can't tell if they're the same spots, or different, getting better or worse....my husband looked at him and said "aren't those the same spots he had last time?", so I 'm wondering if that's just some strange marking on his rear fin.
I hope it's just a mark, but I am going to continue treatment for a while anyway....

[Diana]

Ich does not have a dormant phase. It dies without a host.
Some fish can harbor Ich in their gills.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa041

http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/ich.shtml

[keeper11]

I've had several outbreaks of ick since i began keeping loaches. In the beginning, i would often lose fish because i was scared of how sensitive they would be to the medication and wasn't giving them affective doses. I've tried several different treatments, but what seems to work the best is Liquid Super Ick Cure by API (i got mine at petsmart). Using a half dose i was able to completely cure my clowns in only a few days and they were literally covered from head to fin... (they hid in my filter for several days and when they finally came out i was shocked to see the condition they were in) If anyone is in need of a miracle cure i highly recommend this product.

[ahmandi2]

Hi Diana,
I am so glad that you brought that up! I am such a newcomer to all of this. BUT I thought it odd that Ich needs a host to live, and as such, will die without a way to propagate, within a week or so.
So that leaves me asking...how the heck is ich present "in most tanks all the time"? I read a huge long post on ich recently and it had the work of a professor/aquariest/genius type guy, who says that is bullocks. Ich is NOT always in a tank. It can't be!
So I don't really know what to think. Do you mean that a fish can have ich in it's gills, and not have any symptoms? But once they fall out/off of the gills, the baby ichs are going to attach to whatever fishy surface they can find. So the gill thing would only be for a few days. The baby ichs don't care what they attach to. And there would be our symptoms, out in the open.
I really respect your opinion. I'd love to hear more of what you think Ich is about, since I REALLY want to be as informed as I possibly can, not with lore or old wives tales, but facts....
Because I love my fishies, and I don't want any more to die

[Diana]

Do you mean that a fish can have Ich in it's gills, and not have any symptoms? But once they fall out/off of the gills, the baby ichs are going to attach to whatever fishy surface they can find. So the gill thing would only be for a few days.

That is right. At most, the baby Ich organisms might hide in the gills a second time around, or so few land on the fish that you might miss them, but at tropical temperatures Ich should not stay hidden for more than a week.

Some things that may make it hard to see, so miss seeing Ich:
White or silvery fish.
Ich that is under the pectoral or pelvic fins. These fins are held a bit closer to the body, and many fish are pale colored in these areas, so a few Ich might escape notice.
Ich in the gills. The only symptom might be difficulty breathing.
Very few Ich, and the fish happen to keep that side away from you when you are looking at them.
cool water, so the life cycle takes longer.

It may happen though that there are one or two Ich organisms on the fish, then some stress happens. The Ich multiplies, and latches on to the stressed fish, but you cannot see them for a few days. (Ich is too small to see at first) Then, suddenly, the fish have a really bad case of Ich.
The 'really bad case' is not the first generation that has happened, but the real first generation was just a few, and they got missed. Just a few Ich organisms can produce many hundreds of babies. Some fish that are not stressed seem able to fight off the Ich organisms.

The very best way to prevent Ich is to quarantine ALL fish, from ANY source for a month, minimum. This gives Ich and many other diseases or parasites plenty of time to show up. You can treat in the quarantine tank with specially targeted medicine at the right dose because usually you will only have one species in the quarantine tank at a time. After the fish is well, and the medicine has been cleared from the water start the clock again on the 'one month in quarantine'.
Use the time in a quarantine tank to deworm the fish, and to make whatever changes are needed to the water to slowly acclimate them to your tank.

If there is any hint that the fish came from a possible infected tank, I turn on the UV right away. This kills the first generation of Ich that is born in the Q-tank, so stops the infestation right away. No chance to build up to stressful levels. Then I turn off the UV, and start counting the month of quarantine from the day the UV is off.

The information I linked above, at the Skeptical Aquarist is very helpful in understanding what is true, and what is 'old wives' tales'.

[chefkeith]

Ich has difficulty penetrating a healthy fishes slime coat, but the parasite can easily infect and continuously re-infect the gills. Ich a has life cycle where the white bump or cyst will theoretically fall off the fish, but if the cyst is in the gills it might get stuck in the gill filaments and stay there until it hatches, allowing the gills to continuously get re-infected. It's like an ich hotel in the gills. When an ich tomont leaves, an ich theront takes it's place. Fish will even build a tolerance to the ich in its gills, as they will heal quicker, and may seem completely unaffected. They'll do fine until their immune system is needed for something else, like osmotic shock or the temperature dropping suddenly.

[ahmandi2]

Hi again,
Well that makes a bit more sense. I really appreciate the explanations, I just got so much good info from you guys.
The two remaining loaches seem fine now. I do NOT see any spots on tails, but that could be because they're so deviously fast and slippery....I"m going to check again a couple times a day. And tonight, well, it's blood worm friday, so they'll for sure be out and visible.
Muchos Gracias, I do appreciate you all so much!!!