Does anyone have experience with Seachem's neutral regulator? Would it be a safe way to keep my ph stable?
My tap is at ph 8 and very hard and alkaline. Had been using purifed water, which is at 6.8...but very soft and low alkalinity. I noticed that my ph will quickly go down.
regulating Ph
Moderator: LoachForumModerators
Re: regulating Ph
Do not play around with altering your pH this way.
Use distilled or RO water to dilute the tap water.
Fish are not really looking for a certain pH. Soft water fish really are looking for soft water. Less minerals.
Do not ADD more chemicals to the water hoping to make it right.
Proper way to correct the water chemistry:
Mix tap and pure water (distilled or RO) until the GH, KH and TDS (Total dissolved solids) is right for the fish you are keeping. The pH ought to then be not too far off of right. You can then add peat moss to the filter to fine tune the pH.
Having hard, alkaline water is like having a bucket full of rocks.
If your fish want soft water, that is a bucket with just a few pebbles in it.
You cannot make a bucket full of rocks softer by adding more stuff to it. You need to remove the rocks.
Use distilled or RO water to dilute the tap water.
Fish are not really looking for a certain pH. Soft water fish really are looking for soft water. Less minerals.
Do not ADD more chemicals to the water hoping to make it right.
Proper way to correct the water chemistry:
Mix tap and pure water (distilled or RO) until the GH, KH and TDS (Total dissolved solids) is right for the fish you are keeping. The pH ought to then be not too far off of right. You can then add peat moss to the filter to fine tune the pH.
Having hard, alkaline water is like having a bucket full of rocks.
If your fish want soft water, that is a bucket with just a few pebbles in it.
You cannot make a bucket full of rocks softer by adding more stuff to it. You need to remove the rocks.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.
Happy fish keeping!
Happy fish keeping!
-
Crissyloach
- Posts: 289
- Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:41 am
Re: regulating Ph
^^I agree. Are your fish okay witht the current PH? If they are fine with it, then there is no need to alter it, right?
Last edited by Crissyloach on Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Current betta count...Too many.
Re: regulating Ph
Thanks for the information. I am trying to find a balance between my tap water and the purified r/o water. My concern has been the drop in ph that seems to occur in short time span, which I have read is not good and I suspect is a product of the low alkalinity/kh of the purified water, which is the primary source for tank. The product I mentioned is a phosphate buffer. I have read positive feedback as a whole on web... but on lol, the feedback is consistently against using any chemical agent to modify the ph, so I will listen to the experienced.
My fish seem seem to be well, but being a new aquarist, I am not sure if I know how to pick up a problem from such a thing as ph instability...what would be the symptoms? They all have appetites and are most active early day and early evening, but they do like to to be in their caverns much of the day, although yo-yos are more active. So, is this normal?
I wonder how you who have big tanks manage water changes, as I with a 44- and 10-gal. tanks buy purified water weekly for partial water changes. If my loaches are able to survive me, however, I hope to get a bigger tank. Buying so many gals. of water each week, however, can come to be an increasingly large labor of love. How to do you manage water?
My fish seem seem to be well, but being a new aquarist, I am not sure if I know how to pick up a problem from such a thing as ph instability...what would be the symptoms? They all have appetites and are most active early day and early evening, but they do like to to be in their caverns much of the day, although yo-yos are more active. So, is this normal?
I wonder how you who have big tanks manage water changes, as I with a 44- and 10-gal. tanks buy purified water weekly for partial water changes. If my loaches are able to survive me, however, I hope to get a bigger tank. Buying so many gals. of water each week, however, can come to be an increasingly large labor of love. How to do you manage water?
-
starsplitter7
- Posts: 5054
- Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:04 pm
- Location: Tampa, Florida
Re: regulating Ph
I use Florida tap water, which is one step down from liquid rock and is 7.4 or higher. The pH of my tank is 6-6.5. I do 25% to 50% depending on the size of the tanks every week or two. I haven't had problems. I do have a water filter on my tap, which removes some impurities and some of the chlorine. A good water filte ron your tank will probably be a cheaper long term option for you. Your fish sound great to me. Also remember that as a newbie, sales clerks will sell you stuff you don't need and stuff that is dangerous to your fish.
Re: regulating Ph
starsplitter7, when you say a good water filter on the tank, can you give me product information...thanks
Re: regulating Ph
Water filter on the tap, not tank.
Reverse Osmosis removes 90% to 99% of all the stuff in the water. Minerals, chlorine, ammonia and a lot more.
Activated Carbon filters remove a lot of the things that make water smell bad, organic stuff, medicines, but not minerals.
Please post the following, and lets see if we can help.
Tap Water:
pH right out of the tap.
pH after a glass of water has sat out 24-48 hours.
GH
KH
TDS
Tank
pH
GH
KH
TDS
Reverse Osmosis removes 90% to 99% of all the stuff in the water. Minerals, chlorine, ammonia and a lot more.
Activated Carbon filters remove a lot of the things that make water smell bad, organic stuff, medicines, but not minerals.
Please post the following, and lets see if we can help.
Tap Water:
pH right out of the tap.
pH after a glass of water has sat out 24-48 hours.
GH
KH
TDS
Tank
pH
GH
KH
TDS
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.
Happy fish keeping!
Happy fish keeping!
Re: regulating Ph
Hi. I can give you the readings of tap, from immediately to 2 days sitting there has not been change. How do you measure TDS, and I just have relative measures from strip.
tap:
ph 8.0
hardness (gh correct?) "very hard"
kh High (200-300)
the r/o purified water I use:
ph 6.8
gh very soft
kh very low
My Wed 2/9 readings:
ph < 6.8 (after adding/changing out 2 gal to conditioned tap day before, was <6.5, and the day before same, <6.5
....on 2/6 had done 25% gal change (this is 44gal tank)...and after ph was at 7.0...about 3/4 water used was r/o).
My concern goes back to a dip I saw following 30% change done following ich tx on 1/31, following that ph 6.8...2 days later ph read 6.0. Frankly with that water change I did not write down the percentage of tap/ro used, but I know it was primarily RO
I then changed out 7-gal to conditioned tap and ph shot up to 7.0.
today, based on test tube ph 6.6-6.8 strip: ph 6.5 kh <40 gh 75 (the kh and gh tend to be consistently that)
my ph seems to consistenly diminish
If there is specific testing equip to give me precise measures for kh, ph, and TDS, please tell me where and what to get them, if recommended. Also, is digital ph reader recommended?
tap:
ph 8.0
hardness (gh correct?) "very hard"
kh High (200-300)
the r/o purified water I use:
ph 6.8
gh very soft
kh very low
My Wed 2/9 readings:
ph < 6.8 (after adding/changing out 2 gal to conditioned tap day before, was <6.5, and the day before same, <6.5
....on 2/6 had done 25% gal change (this is 44gal tank)...and after ph was at 7.0...about 3/4 water used was r/o).
My concern goes back to a dip I saw following 30% change done following ich tx on 1/31, following that ph 6.8...2 days later ph read 6.0. Frankly with that water change I did not write down the percentage of tap/ro used, but I know it was primarily RO
I then changed out 7-gal to conditioned tap and ph shot up to 7.0.
today, based on test tube ph 6.6-6.8 strip: ph 6.5 kh <40 gh 75 (the kh and gh tend to be consistently that)
my ph seems to consistenly diminish
If there is specific testing equip to give me precise measures for kh, ph, and TDS, please tell me where and what to get them, if recommended. Also, is digital ph reader recommended?
Re: regulating Ph
Digital meters are OK, the only digital meter I have is TDS. I have dip stick tests, and liquid reagent tests (API)
I would get one (TDS meter) for your RO water. This way you know when the membrane is getting old, starting to let more stuff through.
I would rank the tests in order of importance to the fish:
TDS is the most important, followed very closely by GH
KH also ranks up there pretty high.
If you can keep these reading stable, the fish are not going to be concerned with changes in the pH.
When you do a water change the goal is for the TDS, GH and KH to not change by more than about 10%, especially if the new water is softer than the old. If the new water is a bit harder than the old water, then the change could be up to 15% higher, and most fish have no problems with that.
As long as you can keep the minerals levels stable, I would not worry about pH.
pH as a measurement of water chemistry dates from a time before fish keepers understood about mineral levels in the water.
When they did a water change, all they knew about was pH.
When the pH was different, their fish often died. What was really going on was the mineral level had changed more than the fish could handle. They had no way of testing that, so they blamed the pH.
What really happens is this:
Fish live in balance with their water. A certain TDS level (Measuring minerals and salts) all the stuff in the water may vary. The level of all the salts and minerals in the fish's cells, especially blood, cannot change. The fish regulates this. Where the blood comes close to the water, in the gills, water can cross over, either entering the blood or leaving the blood. The fish gets used to the water they are in, and the mineral level. In fresh water this usually makes more water enter their blood, and the fish are good at getting rid of the excess water.
However, when the mineral level in the water changes, more or less water enters their blood, and they need to adapt to getting rid of more or less water so their cells maintain the same level of salts and minerals.
To a limited extent, fish can do this. But not when the water undergoes too great a change too suddenly.
For more detailed info google osmosis, osmotic regulation and similar things.
The link to pH is this:
When rain falls on soil or rock some of the minerals are dissolved and enter the water.
This happens pretty easily with limestone, and soils derived from coral.
Water from wells in areas with high limestone or coral levels will also have a lot of minerals.
Limestone and coral are high in Calcium carbonates and magnesium carbonates.
Water from these areas will show high GH (Calcium and magnesium) and high KH (Carbonates)
The high KH is a buffer that keeps the pH high.
This is very common in Florida, and many other parts of the world, especially in areas of limited rainfall.
But some soils and rocks do not dissolve very easily. Water that runs through soils or across rocks like this pick up very few minerals. This water will be quite soft, with acidic pH if it flows through leaves and other organic matter, or neutral if there are not a lot of fallen leaves.
This is common in areas with soils composed of granite parent material.
Also common in areas with high rainfall. More rain = more plants grow, so more fallen leaves.
The early fish keepers did not have water filters, Reverse Osmosis or any other sort. They got their water from several sources, that may have had varying levels of minerals, and different pH.
If normally they used well water (more likely to be high in minerals) then used rain water (no minerals) the change in mineral levels would likely kill the fish. But all they could test was pH, and blamed the altered pH for the death of the fish.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Best way to deal with this:
Make up a recipe of RO and tap water that suits the fish.
Test the tap water and the RO water each time you make up a new batch of water, and test the finished product before you do a water change.
The GH, KH and TDS of the new water you make up ought to match the tank.
Then you can do as large a water change as you need to, safely.
If the recipe is a little bit off you could do either of things.
1) Make the new water right by...
Add more tapwater or some minerals if it is too soft. (Baking soda to raise KH, Seachem Equilibrium to raise the GH- but tap water is easiest, unless your water mixing barrel is already overflowing)
Add RO water if the new water is too hard.
2) Do a smaller water change so the net result is just a small change in mineral level.
I would get one (TDS meter) for your RO water. This way you know when the membrane is getting old, starting to let more stuff through.
I would rank the tests in order of importance to the fish:
TDS is the most important, followed very closely by GH
KH also ranks up there pretty high.
If you can keep these reading stable, the fish are not going to be concerned with changes in the pH.
When you do a water change the goal is for the TDS, GH and KH to not change by more than about 10%, especially if the new water is softer than the old. If the new water is a bit harder than the old water, then the change could be up to 15% higher, and most fish have no problems with that.
As long as you can keep the minerals levels stable, I would not worry about pH.
pH as a measurement of water chemistry dates from a time before fish keepers understood about mineral levels in the water.
When they did a water change, all they knew about was pH.
When the pH was different, their fish often died. What was really going on was the mineral level had changed more than the fish could handle. They had no way of testing that, so they blamed the pH.
What really happens is this:
Fish live in balance with their water. A certain TDS level (Measuring minerals and salts) all the stuff in the water may vary. The level of all the salts and minerals in the fish's cells, especially blood, cannot change. The fish regulates this. Where the blood comes close to the water, in the gills, water can cross over, either entering the blood or leaving the blood. The fish gets used to the water they are in, and the mineral level. In fresh water this usually makes more water enter their blood, and the fish are good at getting rid of the excess water.
However, when the mineral level in the water changes, more or less water enters their blood, and they need to adapt to getting rid of more or less water so their cells maintain the same level of salts and minerals.
To a limited extent, fish can do this. But not when the water undergoes too great a change too suddenly.
For more detailed info google osmosis, osmotic regulation and similar things.
The link to pH is this:
When rain falls on soil or rock some of the minerals are dissolved and enter the water.
This happens pretty easily with limestone, and soils derived from coral.
Water from wells in areas with high limestone or coral levels will also have a lot of minerals.
Limestone and coral are high in Calcium carbonates and magnesium carbonates.
Water from these areas will show high GH (Calcium and magnesium) and high KH (Carbonates)
The high KH is a buffer that keeps the pH high.
This is very common in Florida, and many other parts of the world, especially in areas of limited rainfall.
But some soils and rocks do not dissolve very easily. Water that runs through soils or across rocks like this pick up very few minerals. This water will be quite soft, with acidic pH if it flows through leaves and other organic matter, or neutral if there are not a lot of fallen leaves.
This is common in areas with soils composed of granite parent material.
Also common in areas with high rainfall. More rain = more plants grow, so more fallen leaves.
The early fish keepers did not have water filters, Reverse Osmosis or any other sort. They got their water from several sources, that may have had varying levels of minerals, and different pH.
If normally they used well water (more likely to be high in minerals) then used rain water (no minerals) the change in mineral levels would likely kill the fish. But all they could test was pH, and blamed the altered pH for the death of the fish.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Best way to deal with this:
Make up a recipe of RO and tap water that suits the fish.
Test the tap water and the RO water each time you make up a new batch of water, and test the finished product before you do a water change.
The GH, KH and TDS of the new water you make up ought to match the tank.
Then you can do as large a water change as you need to, safely.
If the recipe is a little bit off you could do either of things.
1) Make the new water right by...
Add more tapwater or some minerals if it is too soft. (Baking soda to raise KH, Seachem Equilibrium to raise the GH- but tap water is easiest, unless your water mixing barrel is already overflowing)
Add RO water if the new water is too hard.
2) Do a smaller water change so the net result is just a small change in mineral level.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.
Happy fish keeping!
Happy fish keeping!
Re: regulating Ph
Thanks for all the info. I just have the one tank and used bottled purified r/o water. I will look into the TDS reader. My strategy will be to do two smaller partial water changes per week, 10-15%. I have been looking for the right combo of the 2 water sources, but I think 2/3 r/o to 1/3 tap should work. It seemed to initially, but I was doing frequent water changes because of the new tank syndrome and then I got the ich just as that was stabilizing. I also had been using diatom filter for last week of ich tx and days following...but I thought that would not alter any of the chemical makeup of water. It has been quite an introduction to fishkeeping. I may investigate into an r/o filter, but not sure how much they run $$, likewise for the digital tds. Lot to learn. Meanwhile, the fish fortunately seem fine. How many tanks do you have..do you have a means of putting the water directly in tank from your r/o filter? What do you use as conditioner and how is that applied? Thanks again for your help
Re: regulating Ph
I have about 20 tanks.
I do not put water directly from the RO filter into the tanks. I need to carry it in buckets or something.
RO can be added directly to tanks as a top off. The gets around the problem of adding more minerals to the tank each time it needs to be topped off.
Best way to handle the problem is to make one recipe and stick to it. Check the water sources to be sure they are the same each time. Some water from wells or from municipal sources can change quite a lot.
TDS meter was about $20 when I got it a few years ago.
RO filter can be a lot more, and may not be worth it just for one tank.
If your family is drinking the tap water and you want them to have something better look into an RO for the household.
If your family is drinking bottled water because the tap water is so bad definitely look into an RO unit.
I do not put water directly from the RO filter into the tanks. I need to carry it in buckets or something.
RO can be added directly to tanks as a top off. The gets around the problem of adding more minerals to the tank each time it needs to be topped off.
Best way to handle the problem is to make one recipe and stick to it. Check the water sources to be sure they are the same each time. Some water from wells or from municipal sources can change quite a lot.
TDS meter was about $20 when I got it a few years ago.
RO filter can be a lot more, and may not be worth it just for one tank.
If your family is drinking the tap water and you want them to have something better look into an RO for the household.
If your family is drinking bottled water because the tap water is so bad definitely look into an RO unit.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.
Happy fish keeping!
Happy fish keeping!
-
starsplitter7
- Posts: 5054
- Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:04 pm
- Location: Tampa, Florida
Re: regulating Ph
I got my TDS meter at Walgreens.
Re: regulating Ph
I just ordered one online, under $20. Walgreens...never would of thought of looking there.
Re: regulating Ph
Walgreens, huh? Never would have crossed my mind!
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.
Happy fish keeping!
Happy fish keeping!
-
yaksaredabomb
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:17 pm
- Location: Bloomington, IN
Re: regulating Ph
I bought a TDS meter on Amazon for $26:
http://www.amazon.com/HM-Digital-Handhe ... B000VTQM70
I was surprised to measure my tap water as 80 ppm and filtered water as 90 ppm (with pur 3-stage faucet filter). Makes me wonder if the filter is really worth it. Distilled water measures 10 ppm, so even if the meter isn't quite calibrated correctly it probably isn't *completely* off.
http://www.amazon.com/HM-Digital-Handhe ... B000VTQM70
I was surprised to measure my tap water as 80 ppm and filtered water as 90 ppm (with pur 3-stage faucet filter). Makes me wonder if the filter is really worth it. Distilled water measures 10 ppm, so even if the meter isn't quite calibrated correctly it probably isn't *completely* off.
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