EMERGENCY HELP!

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LoachOrgy
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EMERGENCY HELP!

Post by LoachOrgy » Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:17 am

Everything was fine. I was eating breakfast, i hear loud sloshing in my loach tank. One of my oldest 3.5" loaches was sloshing back and forth violently on the top of the tank. i went over there and the loach just stopped moving and then fell to the bottom. I fished him out with the net and put him in a small separator with a bubbler. I dont' know what else to do. This was sudden. I don't know if the other fish were fighting but I have seen no signs of trouble with this fish ever. The fish was acting completely normal. I just did a feeding about an hour ago. Glassworms and some algae wafers was the food. Anyone know anything?

The gills are flashing heavily. checking water parameters now.

water parameters are normal.. the nitrates look slightly high but light pink in color compared to the indicator. im doing a water change now. maybe 20%. its in the safe range but normally its clear, its slightly pink now at 20ppm.

90 gallon tank.

I did introduce 3 new loaches about 2 weeks ago. I had them quarantined for a month prior to adding them. They were also treated with antibiotics and appear healthy. It is the only thing I can think of unless it was the glass worms. I normally feed them one protein cube a week of blood worms or glass worms.

There does not appear to be any phyical signs of fighting or damage. There is no bloating or discoloration. The loach looks completely normal visually. The gills are flashing and the loach is still alive. But the mouth is moving a little very quickly. I have been looking directly at the loach and it will move its mouth in response. But the body looks completely paralized.
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Re: EMERGENCY HELP!

Post by LoachOrgy » Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:56 am

I was going to move the loach into a separator tank and give a good dose of prime to detoxify any nitrates to see if it helps. I noticed as I was about to do this that on the other side of the loach, the spine in the eye was poking directly out. The loach is almost paralyzed so I am now thinking this may be a fighting incident.

After waiting another 20 minutes or more the loach appears to have some bloody marks near its mouth area and the spine is still out. I don't know if it is stuck or not. I am leaning towards a fight now. I am still going to do the water change.

tds in the tank is at normal range. do a 10% bi weekly water change. just cleaned out the canister filters today. did about a 15 gallon water change. the canister filters are cleaned at least once a month or twice a month. all bio filtration is cleaned in tank water taken out in a 5 gallon bucket during a water change.

well the loach isn't doing well now. the loach is barely moving.
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LoachOrgy
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Re: EMERGENCY HELP!

Post by LoachOrgy » Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:18 pm

RIP Spot. 4.5" measured. Had Spot since 2006-7. The icon in my avatar is Spot as a baby. After the loach passed or near the time of passing, the black stripes started to have a little discoloration like splotchiness.


Could be coincidence but as I cleaned out the canister filters, i saw a small dead spider in there. I also noticed that when i initially stuck my fingers in the water it stung me a little bit. Anyone have any idea what this might be that caused the stringing? I gave them a 1 day break on food this week like what is done routinely after a big meal.
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chefkeith
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Re: EMERGENCY HELP!

Post by chefkeith » Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:48 pm

Sorry to hear it. The water stung? Like electricity? Did you check to see if you have a malfunctioning heater or filter?

If that's not the problem, then perhaps the Quarantine procedure for the new fish wasn't sufficient enough. Most new loaches carry internal and external parasites that eventually need to be treated for. In a low stress environment, the loaches can usually avoid a full blown infection, so early detection is usually impossible. I usually suggest a prophylactic treatment for the most common parasites when the fish are in quarantine.

Maybe now that they are somewhat stressed, you'll see something crop up in a few days. Hopefully, it's nothing more to worry about than overly aggressive fish. Just continue what you're doing and keep a close on on them.

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LoachOrgy
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Re: EMERGENCY HELP!

Post by LoachOrgy » Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:51 pm

chefkeith wrote:Sorry to hear it. The water stung? Like electricity? Did you check to see if you have a malfunctioning heater or filter?

If that's not the problem, then perhaps the Quarantine procedure for the new fish wasn't sufficient enough. Most new loaches carry internal and external parasites that eventually need to be treated for. In a low stress environment, the loaches can usually avoid a full blown infection, so early detection is usually impossible. I usually suggest a prophylactic treatment for the most common parasites when the fish are in quarantine.

Maybe now that they are somewhat stressed, you'll see something crop up in a few days. Hopefully, it's nothing more to worry about than overly aggressive fish. Just continue what you're doing and keep a close on on them.

thanks for your response ckeith.

the stinging might just be a cut on my hand and the excessive amount of bubbles i have going in the tank from the jetheads. it happens from time to time. seems its only when i first stick my hand in if theres a cut. i might have been freaking out a little when my favorite loach died. i was pretty upset.

well, the 3 new loaches that were introduced were the loaches at my office. they were living with cichlids and getting beat up pretty bad. i have treated them with meds several times over the course of a year and i did a 2 month quarantine after an antibiotic treatment with them in a quarantine tank. they seemed healthy with no visual symptoms or strange behavior. i didn't ever catch them scratching or acting strange.

and the weird thing is, they aren't acting stressed. its one big happy loach family. and also i just caught all of my clowns and striatas eating my upside down catfish. i also caught two of my larger fighting the next day, exactly how the other two were fighting when my 3rd largest loach died. they were sloshing violently at the top of the tank fighting. maybe he got speared in a vital area with the spine. im not really sure but the loach didn't last much longer than 30 minutes after the incident. please see this thread for a little more detail about the issue. I don't think this is a disease issue now. maybe a power struggle? its weird, the only fish fighting are my older fish. not the new fish and any older fish. the one that died, had his spine out on one side and died that way with the spine out. i took pics but id rather not have to look at my poor buddy dead again.

http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=22766

also in this thread is a link to an update on my tank. if you watch some of the videos all of the loaches have been having a much more fun time. i can tell they start swimming at the top of the tank more often, they were more shy prior to adding these new fish. but the new fish are very brave living with cichlids so they come right up to my face against the glass. ive noticed that when the other loaches see this, they get a little more brave and come up to me more often now as well. and they school much more now. its almost like the mob or crowd mentality. very big difference in aggressiveness. and now when they loachy dance, its very entertaining and all of the loaches try much harder to convince me for food now. they do flips and swim upside down.
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chefkeith
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Re: EMERGENCY HELP!

Post by chefkeith » Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:32 pm

My only other thought is that fasting the fish is causing the aggression. IME, Hungry Fish + Not Enough Food = Fewer Fish It just works that way in every ecosystem. I know my Clown Loach will turn my tanks inside out looking for food if I don't feed them regularly. I finally gave up on keeping submerged plants in my loach tanks because the loaches would dig them up looking for little critters, like snails and planeria to feed on. Small, baby, or juvi fish usually don't survive in my loach tanks also. Seems they are always looking for a free meal.

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LoachOrgy
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Re: EMERGENCY HELP!

Post by LoachOrgy » Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:46 pm

I always fast them one day week. Also, I have increased their amount of food when I feed.
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chefkeith
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Re: EMERGENCY HELP!

Post by chefkeith » Wed Aug 24, 2011 7:37 pm

What is the reasoning behind fasting them?

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LoachOrgy
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Re: EMERGENCY HELP!

Post by LoachOrgy » Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:19 pm

HELP AGAIN!!!

I had to go out of town for 4 days. I had done a 20 percent water change before I left on my larger. I had this incident and separated my upside down catfish, my tiger pleco and my glass fish into my 20 gallon rostrata tank.

when i got home tonight i noticed in my large tank that my striata was clamping fins. the smallest striata. now i was about to do a water change and i noticed my big upside down catfish jumping radically all over the tank like my clown that died the other day.

I put him in a separator but hes moving around like hes dying just like my clown loach. i think he just died. looks to be jerking back and forth then just can't move and is moving his mouth like hes gasping for air.

i checked all parameters and they look normal.

ok after i cleaned out the tank and took upside down cat out of the water i did notice some damage to the fin on the side of the fish. it appears to be a wound. no bloating or anything else unusual the fish looks like it normally does. im afraid now it might be more fighting over food. the rostratas outnumber the upside down cat and hes about 3 times their size. im not sure they would all play around and swim with each other. when upside down cat was twitching back and forth violently along the top of the tank, the rostrata appeared to be swimming near him like a loachy dance thinking the upside down cat was playing with him. it didn't appear to be any violence more of a playful dance thinking the upside down cat was swimming in a strange way maybe to play. i noticed immediately when i walked toward the tank because the cat was right side up then just started twitching. im going to take a picture of the injury. its about all i can do for now.


Please help. If this is spread into my rostrata tank now this is bad news.

something is wrong in both tanks now. This appears to be similar to the other loach dying. I don't even know where to begin to treat this. I see one striata in my large tank scraping with clamped fins, the upside down cat appears to have just died or is about to. please help.

i have a few antibacterial treatments but i really have no idea what this could be. im not seeing strange signs. i moved the fish because of the violence that happened to the other upside down cat in my big tank.

i was just looking at the upside down catfish around 30 minutes ago and he wasn't acting strange or anything. i did a feeding and then maybe another few hours passed. i looked at the fish about 30 minutes ago and nothing was wrong. then this.

im doing a small water change in both tanks, at this point i don't know what else to do. so im just doing a small water change and cleaning out filters.

the only other thing i could think of is that the water conditioner i have is a little cloudy looking.

i had added about a half gallon of treated water to the tank about 30 minutes before this happened. the upside down cats have always been a little sensitive to the water changes. im wondering if this might be the issue. hmmm...ive used this same water treatement aqua safe the last few times i added new water to the tank with no issues.

im paranoid about everything now. so im also thinking that these sinking catfish pellets i have been feeding the fish lately could be the culprit. to be on the safe side, im chunking them in the garbage.

it also appears to me that the fin looks almost ripped out of socket. so its an open wound. but that could have happened when the fish was jerking all over the tank and crashing into things. so im not sure the damage happened from an attack. this is all speculation trying to narrow it down.

back to the striata with clamped fins. once i took out the ornament to do a tank vaccum i see that the striata is moving his fins now. but he was keeping them clamped for a little while. 15% water change in the works for the tank. the jethead filters have been cleaned. not even last week the 2 rena canister filters were cleaned along with a 20% water change.
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LoachOrgy
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Re: EMERGENCY HELP!

Post by LoachOrgy » Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:08 pm

well i checked the botia striata fish today after work. the clamped fin striata is looking good. hes swimming around with the other fish, loachy dancing and the fins are out. ill probably do a 5 gallon water change tomorrow. then another wc in about 2 more days. im reluctant to treat until i can figure out what the real issue is. there are so many factors im not sure which one it is. here is what ive come up with as possibilities:

1) cloudy water conditioner. improperly de-chlorinating the water i put in.
2) bacterial disease i can't see and see no signs of externally or behaviorally other than what ive described
3) fighting accidental death( i think this is now ruled out if it has happened in two different tanks to two types of fish. upside down cat and one clown loach.
4) bad shrimp pellets from the store
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LoachOrgy
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Re: EMERGENCY HELP!

Post by LoachOrgy » Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:59 pm

come to think of it, if the upside down cat did have something internal and the other loaches ate him, maybe they are starting to show signs of whatever it is.
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Re: EMERGENCY HELP!

Post by LoachOrgy » Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:14 pm

well i guess no one has any input. anyway, ive been treating with tmp sulfa for four days now. The clamped fin striata has not clamped fins or scraped for the last 4 days since i found him like that. I wonder if the lowered feeding days while i was out of town had anything to do with it. i have been doing daily water changes. and so far, things are looking better. the behavior is not as skiddish as it was the day i got back from vacation.

someone suggested that there may be another thing going on with flagelites. im not experienced with this but visibly ive been looking at them with an eagle eye all week with a bright light on to see if i spot anything unusual and all loaches in the 90 gallon appear to be acting good, showing no signs of visible worms that i can see, the droppings look normal and they are eating well.

all loaches have a good appetite and eat and get full. things are looking better. i was panicking for a few days about this. i thought i might have a huge outbreak like i did years ago. but from experience, the water changes and extra observation helped me spot things before it got out of hand. ive over filtered the tank and i believe that is a big help. i have removed my river tank manifold setup recently because i felt the loaches needed more room. the tank has good circulation and ive been vaccuming it out all week.

tds is about 30 over tap.

all parameters look normal, everything is where it should be. so the water quality looks good. im suspecting it was my last salad shrimp feeding. i haven't fed them shrimp in a long time now. it has been over 5 months. i believe the leftover pieces ended up getting stuck in the intake of my rena fillstar and when i cleaned the filter out last time, there was alot of debris coming out of the tubes when i hooked it back up. i generally get a big net and scoop it up as fast as possible if i see this. i went ahead and did a thorough tank cleaning. i took out all ornament, filtered the gravel a few times over the course of the week. i did water changes and treated daily. both my rena3 x fillstars were cleaned out. the tubing from both and jetheads have all been scrubed with a tube brush to clean out any gunk all rinsed in removed tank water.

i believe thanks to some of the advice ive received here over the years i was able to contain what is happening now. things were happening suddenly and i was panicking but i stoood my ground and did the necessary steps to slow whatever it is down. im hoping to figure it out soon and then be able to eliminate it. i think i might refrain from the shrimp feedings in the future.
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Re: EMERGENCY HELP!

Post by LoachOrgy » Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:42 pm

the striata is still clamping his fins. its been day 7 of tmp sulfa treatment. im going to filter out this treatment after 10 days. i don't see any signs of improvement. wondering if this might be some kind of external parasite. i witnessed the striata scraping on the sides a little today.
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LoachOrgy
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Re: EMERGENCY HELP!

Post by LoachOrgy » Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:17 pm

well an update. all the issues seem to have cleared up. fish are looking normal once again. i have been treating the tank with De Los which treats external parasites. the treatment is nearing 2 weeks. so far, the striata in question is not clamping fins anymore after treatment. fingers crossed. guess im not gonna get much help on this forum.
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chefkeith
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Re: EMERGENCY HELP!

Post by chefkeith » Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:01 am

Glad things are improving.

Sorry I'm not much help these days. It's been about 4 years since I done any real hands on treatments for any of my fish. Lucky me and loaches (knock on wood). So I really don't what the latest and greatest products there are for treating fish diseases these days.

I probably don't have anything new to say that I haven't said before.
Monitor water quality (get an Ammonia Alert Meter if you don't already have one). Keep water well oxygenated by adding surface agitation or air stones. Do frequent regular water changes. Monitor the TDS and insure that it's consistent. Quarantine and treat all new fish for the most common parasites. Or just stock the tank once, and never buy new fish again. Avoid cross contamination. Quarantine sick, injured, or weak fish. That's about all I know as far as maintaining fish health.

I actually haven't purchased any new fish in 6 years. Everything but my loaches have been breeding, so my tanks have stayed fully stocked. I really don't know much about diagnosing and treating mystery problems. Luckily, I've avoided them so far.

I hope you get this problem licked and avoid future problems. I've always enjoyed your videos and your creativeness. I even copied your loach pipe idea and my loaches have you to thank for it. So keep the updates coming. I'm always interested to hear how your fish are doing.

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