Stress kills - and the fish don't like it either.

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DainBramage1991
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Stress kills - and the fish don't like it either.

Post by DainBramage1991 » Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:17 pm

Huge rant:

I hate ich. I think that most tropical fish enthusiasts probably feel the same way, but today, I REALLY hate those little, white, single-celled fish killers with a passion.

I've been keeping fish off and on for 25 years, and while I consider myself an amateur in the hobby, I'm not totally ignorant about it. I know how to keep fish healthy, or I thought I did. The basics are covered: 7.5 pH, 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, nitrates usually around 20, temp at 78 F. Not bad for what is essentially a slightly overstocked tank filled with messy eaters that know how to beg more food from me.

My one crucial mistake, due to space and budget limitations as opposed to me not wanting to do things correctly, was a failure to quarantine a new pleco I added 6 weeks ago. Despite having come from a very good LFS where he was in a tank full of healthy looking fish, himself included, he was carrying the new, treatment resistant "super-ich". Of course, I didn't know this at the time. I didn't even know of its existence.

Several days later, the pleco started showing the classic signs of ich: listlessness, rapid respiration, and white spots on his body. Oh, joy. He was in a 90 gallon tank with 19 loaches and 6 other catfish - An ich breeding ground if there ever was one. I immediately started the usual treatments, the ones I had used successfully for 25 years: Heat and salt, carefully administering both to be certain not to stress any of the fish beyond their limits. The ich continued to spread, until such time as I cranked the heat all the way up to 87 F, at which time the ich seemed to die off. Unfortunately, so did the pleco, the very fish who's introduction helped cause this mess in the first place. I left the tank at that temperature for a full 2 weeks, believing that it would kill off all of the ich.

By this time, a month has gone by from the initial infection, all of the fish are acting healthy and happy (except the dead pleco, of course), and I figured that I had the problem fixed. Naturally, I started to slowly lower the water temp back down to normal.

4 days later, just as the tank is settling back around 78 F, one of my featherfin catfish started to scratch himself on the rocks. My heart sank, as I observed several small white spots on his left flank. Okay, this means war. Now, how do I poison the ich without poisoning the fish? I spent close to an hour talking to the fish health specialist at the LFS, and Kordon Ich-Attack was recommended. The first few doses seemed to work. The infected featherfin stopped flashing, and went back to normal behavior. I would have been relieved, but the next day I noticed that some of my clown loaches were starting to show signs of infection (again).

This ich is spreading while being medicated. :x

It was about this time that I learned about the existence of "super-ich", and I realized that this is almost certainly the strain that is infesting my tank. Fantastic. The LFS is currently working on getting their hands on some quinine sulfate. With any luck, that will be effective, if I can even afford it. In the mean time, I am slowly bringing the temp back up to the high 80's. Hopefully, this will kill off a majority of the ich again, or at the very least accelerate the ich's life cycle to the point where my fish who's gills are loaded will have a better chance of survival. I'm doing small daily water changes and vacuuming the gravel, which is actually part of my normal routine anyway. I've allowed the salt level to slowly drop with water changes, but I may start adding more again.

I'm open to suggestions, because banging my head against the wall is ineffective but it's all I can think to do at this point.

I do have a quarantine tank now, even though it meant donating my secondary tank to my son so that his smaller tank could be employed as the Q-tank. A day late and a dollar short in this case, however.

Rant over.

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DainBramage1991
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Re: Stress kills - and the fish don't like it either.

Post by DainBramage1991 » Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:58 pm

I know that the previous post fell into the category of "Too long, didn't read", but I can't be the only one that has dealt with or is dealing with this hideous new strain of ich, can I?

I really could use some suggestions and expertise here, several of my loaches are laying on their sides and gasping for oxygen at this point (yes, I have plenty of extra aeration going). I think I've halted the spread of the parasite by bringing the tank back up to 87 F, but I don't think that alone will kill it and I don't dare go any higher for fear of killing the fish.

I've researched these questions and found that the internet is surprisingly unhelpful, so I ask the experienced people on this forum:

Is it worth investing in a UV sterilizer? Do they actually kill the ich (while in the free swimming stage, of course)?
Is quinine sulfate the only known effective medication against this "super-ich"?
How much above 87 degrees F can my fish survive, and for how long? Can I kill the ich at 91-92 F without killing off my entire tank?
(pop: clown loaches, various botiine loaches, featherfin synos, corys, rainbows, white-skirt tetras, a clown pleco, a gold-flecked sailfin pleco)

UVvis
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Re: Stress kills - and the fish don't like it either.

Post by UVvis » Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:49 pm

DainBramage1991 wrote:Is it worth investing in a UV sterilizer? Do they actually kill the ich (while in the free swimming stage, of course)?
Is quinine sulfate the only known effective medication against this "super-ich"?
How much above 87 degrees F can my fish survive, and for how long? Can I kill the ich at 91-92 F without killing off my entire tank?
A UV sterilizer will help, but you kinda have two competing factors. First, it is really only going to be effective on the swimmer stage. Second that I haven't really seen an appropriate UV dose for ich viability. So, if you oversize a sterilizer, have a longer more intense dosage, and have a high throughput, it might ? Maybe? Help?

Quinine sulfate and other quinine drugs (chloroquine) are useful and also work on marine Cryptocaryon, as they are oddly similar protozoa to malaria. They are effective, but do tend to turn a tank yellow/brown and will temporarily yellow the skin of the fish. The downside is that a longterm bath treatment is required, and these can be a bit expensive at times. The fun factor is that you can turn on a blacklight and make your tank flouresce.

As far as temperature concerns, the warmer your tank you'll really need to make sure you are providing more and more oxygen as the water holds drastically less. Your fish are going to be the best bioindicators, but the higher temperatures will be harder on them. If the 87F range is working, I guess I'd wonder why you would want to go higher?


I must admit, I do not envy your current situation and wish you the best of luck. Did you increase gravel vacuuming rates as well?

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DainBramage1991
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Re: Stress kills - and the fish don't like it either.

Post by DainBramage1991 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:03 pm

UVvis wrote:A UV sterilizer will help, but you kinda have two competing factors. First, it is really only going to be effective on the swimmer stage. Second that I haven't really seen an appropriate UV dose for ich viability. So, if you oversize a sterilizer, have a longer more intense dosage, and have a high throughput, it might ? Maybe? Help?
I am aware that it won't do anything to the ich that is on the fish, but this is true of most (if not all) medications as well, according to what I have read. I am hoping to utilize it as a permanent preventative treatment, but I am hesitant to spend my limited funds on something if it is not going to do what I need it to. I have a basic understanding of the life cycle of ich, so I expect to attack it while it is in the free-swimming stage.
UVvis wrote:Quinine sulfate and other quinine drugs (chloroquine) are useful and also work on marine Cryptocaryon, as they are oddly similar protozoa to malaria. They are effective, but do tend to turn a tank yellow/brown and will temporarily yellow the skin of the fish. The downside is that a longterm bath treatment is required, and these can be a bit expensive at times. The fun factor is that you can turn on a blacklight and make your tank flouresce.
Expense would be an issue, but I'd rather keep my fish alive at the expense of my wallet than watch my beloved pets slowly die from these awful parasites. Discoloration I can live with, and the fluorescence sounds kinda fun. :D
UVvis wrote:As far as temperature concerns, the warmer your tank you'll really need to make sure you are providing more and more oxygen as the water holds drastically less. Your fish are going to be the best bioindicators, but the higher temperatures will be harder on them. If the 87F range is working, I guess I'd wonder why you would want to go higher?
I've got an 18" bubble wall, a 300 gph power head with the venturi wide open, and a large, dual outlet HOB creating plenty of splash. The fish are active, energetic, and hungry. I suspect that the high temps have revved up their metabolisms a bit. Even the ones that were laying on their sides gasping have improved significantly. The only reason I would even consider raising the temperature even more is that I've read that the heat and medication resistant "super-ich" dies above 90 F. However, I have no idea if my fish can survive at that temperature, and I'm not willing to risk it without hearing from someone who knows. This strain of ich survived for 14 days at 87 degrees, and then started re-appearing once the temp got down below 82. I suspect that a small number of the protozoa stayed alive on/in some of the fish, possibly kept in check by the combination of the high temps and the fish's immune systems (that's my theory, as ich doesn't have a dormant stage and needs a host to survive more than 48 hours). Currently, my tank is at 87, my fish are getting better, but I suspect that the same thing will happen again no matter long I leave it at this temp. This strain of ich is nasty, and each time I fight it, it gets worse. I need to kill it off completely.
As for vacuuming the gravel: I'm doing daily partial (5 gallons) water changes, and every other day (usually) I vacuum the gravel also. This is actually my normal maintenance routine, and I haven't altered it.

Thanks for the response, and thanks for wishing me luck. I think I'm going to need it.

loachlover77
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Re: Stress kills - and the fish don't like it either.

Post by loachlover77 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:18 am

First I like to say, sorry you have to go through this.

Yes quinine sulfate will kill the ich, also the heat. I would very slowly raise it to 90 degrees and leave it there. If your fish start having issues because of the raised heat then drop it slowly back down to 87 degrees. But watch your fish. 90 degrees will kill the ich.

Never add salt with loaches and plecos, they don't tolerate salt very well. Since Baby Girl, my biggest clown loach, got better from the ich, fungus infection, and swim bladder disorder, I just left the temp in my tank at 86 degrees and I never had an issue with ich since.

I have never had the resistant ich before, and I hope that I never do. I hope you can save your fish.

Diana
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Re: Stress kills - and the fish don't like it either.

Post by Diana » Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:48 pm

UV will kill the free swimming stage.
Obviously the water must pass through the unit to be effective.
In a densely planted tank, or a tank with a lot of caves, rocks, driftwood and other things that obstruct the flow then there may be places where the water is not moving enough to circulate through the UV often enough to kill the parasites. And these are exactly the places that sick fish want to be: In hiding in their caves.

Also, I would not keep the UV on when adding medication to the tank. It may deactivate the medication.

Ancient Chinese remedy:
Move the fish to a new bucket every 24 hours. Dump out the water in the old bucket.

Modern interpretation:
Interrupt the life cycle to stop Ich.
Move the fish to a separate tank, bare bottom, that you can vacuum daily and be sure you are getting all the fallen Ich.
Leave the main tank fishless long enough to be sure the Ich has died. It does not form a resting or spore or egg stage to live over when the fish are gone.
The fish can be treated with medicine while in the hospital tank. Some benefits to using a hospital tank:
Smaller, so cheaper to dose.
Can use 2 or more tanks and customize the treatment to suit the fish. For example, put really heat tolerant species in one tank and species that cannot take the heat in another.
You can use a medicine that stains, but the main tank is safe from blue silicone.
UV works better because it is bare bottom. Nothing to interrupt the water movement.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.

Happy fish keeping!

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DainBramage1991
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Re: Stress kills - and the fish don't like it either.

Post by DainBramage1991 » Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:09 am

Thanks for all of the info.

Unfortunately, a hospital tank is out of the budgetary question right now. I'm stuck treating my fish in the main tank. However, they are responding well to being boiled alive, I mean leaving the tank at 87 F. It's going to be at least a week before I can even get my hands on the quinine sulfate, as I won't even be able to order it until tomorrow. My LFS, despite being excellent in every other way, had never heard of the stuff before I told them about it. They are working on adding it to their inventory, but that will take even longer than it will for me to order it myself.

The UV sterilizer is in my long-term plans, especially now that I know that it won't be a colossal waste of money.

Again, thanks everyone for the info. At this point all but one of my fish are (apparently) doing well. I have one clown loach that is still showing signs of ich in his gills, but I think he is improving. I won't be lowering the tank temperature until at least 3 full weeks after the last sign of any ich, AND I've done a full treatment regimen of quinine sulfate. I want the ich dead and the fish alive, not the other way around.

In the mean time I'll keep banging my head against the wall.

loachlover77
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Re: Stress kills - and the fish don't like it either.

Post by loachlover77 » Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:45 pm

Can you get your hands on Aquari-sol? It is a medication that can be used at full strength with clown loaches. Also it can be used as a preventative for all diseases. I have to text my friend and see if you can use the full strength of quinine sulfate or you have to use half dose. But I am pretty sure you can use the full strength of it with clown loaches. Matter of fact I will text him and get back to you on it.

I use Aquari-sol for my clown loaches and I don't have any signs of diseases. If you can get a hold of it, it will be a life saver.

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Re: Stress kills - and the fish don't like it either.

Post by DainBramage1991 » Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:12 pm

Everything I've ever read says do NOT use copper based chemicals on loaches. The active ingredient in Aquari-sol is copper sulfate. Even if the clowns could tolerate it, I have four other species of loaches in my tank and I'm just not willing to risk testing their copper tolerance.

Currently all of my fish appear healthy. I am still running the tank at 87 F, and will continue to do so for at least another few weeks. I am planning on adding a 36 watt UV sterilizer soon (which is actually less expensive than the quinine sulfate, go figure), which I expect will break the life cycle of the ich for good.

I do appreciate the suggestion, but as my fish have all recovered from the worst of the ich symptoms and seem to be tolerant of the high temps, I'm going to keep with my current plan.

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Re: Stress kills - and the fish don't like it either.

Post by Fisheee » Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:47 am

Please consider leaving the temperature at 86 degrees F?

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DainBramage1991
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Re: Stress kills - and the fish don't like it either.

Post by DainBramage1991 » Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:16 pm

While leaving the temperature high permanently has occurred to me, I'd rather bring it back down to around 78 or 80 F eventually for the long term health of my catfish (and all of my fish, actually). 87 is well outside of the normal temperature range for them, and even though they appear fine for now, I suspect that over extended periods of time the higher temps could impact their overall quality of life and longevity. Both my cories and my featherfins like to have water that's under 80 degrees, and my clown pleco is 5 degrees over his normal temp range also. Only my gold-flecked sailfin pleco is still close to his comfort zone. They're all doing fine, thanks to extra aeration and good luck, but I'd still rather bring the tank temp back down to normal after the ich is gone. I'm not worried about my loaches, they can handle the warmer water just fine as far as I know (especially the clowns).

Reason number two is that it takes a second heater to maintain the higher temp, and I'd like to go back to just using the one. Reason number three is that all of the extra aeration is making micro-bubbles in the water, which I can certainly live with, but I prefer the way the tank looks without them.

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Re: Stress kills - and the fish don't like it either.

Post by loachlover77 » Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:36 pm

Bringing down the tank temp probably would bring the ich back, because ich love the lower temps. I have my tank temp at 86 degrees and it has been there ever since Baby Girl, my biggest clown loach, got better from being sick last year. I have only one heater. It does not take two heaters to keep a high temp if you have the right heater for the tank. I would keep your temp up so that the ich doesn't come back.

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DainBramage1991
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Re: Stress kills - and the fish don't like it either.

Post by DainBramage1991 » Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:51 am

Again, that's an option I've considered and decided against after long study and research. Some of my fish are at a full 10 degrees above their published upper limit. I'm just not willing to leave them in that state forever. If the tank only housed botiine loaches, most of which have no trouble with higher temps, I wouldn't think twice about leaving the tank as it is. However, half of the denizens of my tank are other species, many of which are not as heat tolerant. Clown loaches love high temps, catfish not so much.

As for the heater, it is a Fluval E-300, which does a fine job of maintaining the tank at 78 degrees. However, 87 degrees is 17 degrees above ambient, and the Fluval just won't do it by itself. I've had to add a cheap 100 watt heater to help maintain the higher temperature, which works but is less than ideal.

As for the ich coming back, I'm certain that I will be successful in eradicating it with a two-pronged attack of temperature adjustment and a high-powered UV sterilizer.

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Re: Stress kills - and the fish don't like it either.

Post by MandaMunky » Fri Dec 27, 2013 1:49 am

Can I ask for an update here? I'm going through the same crud - treating 3 ity-bity baby clowns & 5 tetras for Ich, in a 30 gallon, fully cycled QT tank (we just upgraded to a 75 for our bigger loaches/other fish, so the tank was a perfect place to OT some more).

We bumped up the heat & were trying salt, which seemed to help keep it at bay, but just wasn't cutting it & like you I wanted the Ich DEAD - FOR GOOD! & my fish happay, healthy, & ALIVE!

We're using Rid Ich (Formalin/Malachite Green) according to the bottle & they seem to be handling it well, so far. They're still active, swimming normally, breathing normally, eating, etc. I did see one flash a couple of times, but it's not a constant flashing, listless, not eating, etc. situation, so, I'm really hoping I caught it early & I don't have "Super Ich" & that I can recover these guys.

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Re: Stress kills - and the fish don't like it either.

Post by joeybab3 » Wed Jan 01, 2014 2:52 am

DainBramage1991 wrote:I know that the previous post fell into the category of "Too long, didn't read", but I can't be the only one that has dealt with or is dealing with this hideous new strain of ich, can I?
Actually i read the whole thing. I agree with you, if I had the choice to eradicate either the common cold or ich i might just chose ich.
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