Another Ich Post

This forum is for all health-related questions on Loaches and other freshwater fish.

Moderator: LoachForumModerators

Liz1159
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 3:15 pm

Another Ich Post

Post by Liz1159 » Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:13 pm

So I've read seemingly endless posts and sites and opinions about ich treatment. but i could use either some encouragement (hey, you're doing the right thing!) or perhaps some new information (stop, you're making a mistake!). I've included the 'questions' log below. sorry for the wall of text (omg, really sorry it's so long). oh, and don't worry - i bought the last two sids from my LFS, but i've requested 2 - 3 more and as soon as my store can order them, they will. I know they like buddies. any help you can give me will be much appreciated. a month ago, i didn't know what loaches were. now, there is no turning back. these little guys are so spunky. i love them.

Basically, I had (have?) Ich. Treating with Rid Ich Plus (full strength) and slight increase in temperature to speed up cycle. I am on day 10 of treatment (11 by the time anyone sees this). maybe even day 12 (first two days were using old bottle, possibly expired). Symptoms (sids flashing, spots on betta) increased for a few days, but I have not seen a single white spot in at least five days, and the flashing has significantly decreased, but its still continuing (with the tiniest loach in particular). they may be breathing a little hard, but i'm not really sure what their normal breathing is, since they are so new, so it's hard to say. they seem to take a few more breaks to hang out and rest at the bottom than when i first picked them up. Rid Ich says to watch "scaleless" fish for adverse reactions, BUT DOESN'T SAY WHAT THOSE ARE. is flashing one of them? i would think, all things being equal, since i KNOW there was ich, and there is still flashing, it's likely there is still ich in their gills or something. but if gill irritation is a symptom of Rid Ich, and not the parasite any longer, i don't want to continue treating for something thats already cleared since medicine is so rough on them. At the same time, i'm hesitant to stop the treatment too soon and end up with a full blown occurrence.

so to my actual question(s): should i continue Rid Ich as long as there is still ANY flashing? or, should i continue Rid Ich through a full two weeks (4 more treatments) and then stop no matter what and just monitor them closely? should i stop Rid Ich NOW? if stopping, should I be treating with PraziPro or something if flashing doesn't stop but no white spots reappear? i only ever saw ONE white spot on a loach...but i know it's ich from the betta's multiple white spots.

one of the loaches is pretty tiny, but he isn't sunken in really (just thin and little)...i'm keeping an eye on him to make sure he doesn't look as though he is losing weight. everyone is eating (although the loaches are kinda picky - the smallest will only eat frozen bloodworms, the larger only bloodworms, brine shrimp, and peas).

Type of fish that are affected (common name and latin name if possible - common names vary worldwide, latin names don't!). 1 male betta splendens, 2 a. sidthimunki loaches, now just one lonely otocinclus
* How long has the tank been set up for? one-ish months
* Size of tank (dimensions and volume). 15g long (24" long, 12" wide, 12" high)
* How is the tank being filtered? Aquaclear 20
* Water temperature. currently 82 - 84, depending which thermometer you believe (typically 78 - 80, raised due to ich)...third thermometer in the mail, so should know by tomorrow.
* Your maintenance regime (e.g. how often water changes are carried out, what percentage of the water is changed each time, how often you clean your filter/s and how do you do this?) change 20% of water weekly (although i may need to do this differently...maybe 10% twice weekly? as i'm finding my tap pH is about 8.4, but the tank is running about 7.4). i'll swap out various parts of the filter as recommended...although probably not as often since i tend to get a bit lax about that. CURRENTLY i am doing daily 20% water changes first thing in the morning (6:30am) followed by full-strength Rid Ich Plus dose. i was using Tetra AquaSafe conditioner, but switched to NovAqua Plus yesterday since it claims a pH buffer. currently, no carbon in the filter due to meds.
* Has anything new been added to the tank recently? (fish, plants, live food, decor etc). yes...loaches, oto cats, a plant, a piece of spider wood, and ich :(
* What other fish are in the tank? see affected list: one oto, one betta, two sids
* As detailed a description as possible of the symptoms the fish are exhibiting (remember a photograph can speak a thousand words). started with three otos. two died (one after flashing, no other parasite signs, one after seeming stress from water change...pH?? so dead otos. Then, a single spot on the betta (i was inspecting them closely). This is when i started to act. the ich spots increased over the first few days of treatment, but have now been completely gone for several days (maybe six?). the loaches started flashing a day after the sole ich spot. flashing definitely increased for a few days, then decreased. now, flashing is the only remaining symptom. it is seemingly random, and usually not often...a few random flashes throughout the day (i've done a lot of staring at the tank), but primarily seems to occur at night, especially after feeding. oh, and the oto seems to be a bit of a spaz, but not flashing...he swims in circles on the wall sometimes though...he might be stressed by heat and/or meds and/or lack of buddies (i have two more in a quarantine tank, which i have learned my lesson about and will always use...these new friends get to join him after i'm sure ich is clear from main tank and they have been in Q for 2 - 3 weeks to ensure they are clear).
* How long ago the affected fish were added to the tank, and how long the fish have been displaying symptoms. betta I've had for ~2.5 years (in a 5.5 gallon previously). otos about a week before the sids. sids have now been in there for...three weeks now? showing symptoms for two.
* Your current water parameters - ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH. ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 5ish, ph in tank is 7.4 (tested using regular and high range pH kit).

oh - another note. i started to try heat/salt method but then i panicked because research told me loaches are salt sensitive and i thought the loaches were showing signs of stress (they were doing a dominance battle, i had never seen one before and thought they were doing something terrible to each other), so i did water change to reduce the salinity (i hadn't worked up very high yet...maybe 1 tsp/gallon, end goal was 2 per gallon), then started Rid Ich Plus the following morning (or maybe two days later, depending if 2004 Rid Ich was expired). trying to stay the course, but becoming nervous about the flashing without spots now...

help, please :/

User avatar
mikev
Posts: 3103
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 6:06 pm
Location: NY

Re: Another Ich Post

Post by mikev » Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:28 pm

Flashing indeed may be caused by residual ich in the gills.... but also by residual ich damage or something wrong in your water (nitrites do this for example -- is your kit new and known to work? -- I've seen defective API nitrite kits).

At this point -- no symptoms for five days and RidIch+ being generally a working med -- I'd probably assume that the disease has been conquered, stop the meds, do a large water change but still watch the fish carefully for a week looking for more white spots. And recheck that ammonia and nitrites are indeed zero, using another kit .. you said your tank was operating for "one-ish months" and this means ich meds may destabilize the cycle.


Good luck!

Liz1159
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 3:15 pm

Re: Another Ich Post

Post by Liz1159 » Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:54 pm

Thank you very much (for reading the longest post ever and your response). After watching them again tonight and witnessing more very infrequent (but still existing) flashing, I am taking your advice. I did a solid water change (25%...will do another tomorrow but I didn't want to throw pH too much), and conditioned with some amquel + in addition to novaqua + to pull out more of the remaining medication.

I know my ammonia and nitrate tests work (monitoring ammonia in uncycled quarantine tank, which I'm doing twice daily water changes on since I can't use any gravel from main tank to cycle). But you could be right about nitrite not working. It's only ever read zero. And this is an old kit (hand me down...it says aquarium pharmaceuticals instead of API..that's how old it is). I'll confirm nitrites either with a new kit or by bringing it to my LFS.

I'll spend the next week inspecting their every move and let you know how it goes. :)

User avatar
mikev
Posts: 3103
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 6:06 pm
Location: NY

Re: Another Ich Post

Post by mikev » Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:13 pm

Sounds good.... but do recheck nitrites with another kit, and if you have some, suppress them. And nitrites do cause flashing, there was a (sorry!) funny post in a facebook group a week ago when the owner thought his loaches were marking the territory...no, they were flashing, and nitrites reading showed the cause.

Good luck!

Liz1159
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 3:15 pm

Re: Another Ich Post

Post by Liz1159 » Fri May 01, 2015 10:07 pm

No nitrites. I almost wish there were nitrites so I had a nice clean answer. The little loach is still flashing. No increase in frequency that I note. No one has white spots. Other than the heat being a touch high (82-83 F), nothing in the water is out of the ordinary.

I'll keep watching for now, but at what point should I start considering perhaps an internal parasite (or flukes?). He's pretty skinny. Other loach has definitely filled out some since I picked them up, but not little loach. He doesn't seem to be sunken in, but he's not rounding out like the other. Who, incidentally, does a lot of chasing and nipping of the little one. I'm thinking that's because there are only two of them (for now), but mentioning it in case you think it's relevant.

If you think internal parasite(s) could be an issue...any recommendations on treatment? I know I can get prazi-pro, general cure, or anything else easily accessible at stores or online. I'd want to get rid of the problem, but I hate throwing all sorts of meds in the tank just because. Are some of these easier on the fish than others? Other living things in the tank are a betta and oto cats and plants.

You're like the hero of this health forum, by the way. Thanks for taking a few minutes to care about some crazy stranger's fish.

User avatar
mikev
Posts: 3103
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 6:06 pm
Location: NY

Re: Another Ich Post

Post by mikev » Sat May 02, 2015 8:10 am

You are very welcome.
No nitrites. I almost wish there were nitrites so I had a nice clean answer.
Me too. So watch, probably ich is gone and it is something else (could be residual meds in the tank too), but you want to make sure.
Who, incidentally, does a lot of chasing and nipping of the little one. I'm thinking that's because there are only two of them (for now), but mentioning it in case you think it's relevant.
Could be this (two is too few), but also could be because one feels that the other one is unhealthy, they somehow know this ... perhaps a mechanism to drive the unhealthy away.
at what point should I start considering perhaps an internal parasite (or flukes?)
The probability of internal parasites in wild caught botia is very high, so it is to consider even if all the fish looks healthy. It is best to treat preventively even when all looks good. When there are suspicions like in your case, definitely treat... if the treatment does not work, then you can concentrate on other possible causes (like flukes -- less common but possible).
I know I can get prazi-pro, general cure, or anything else easily accessible at stores or online. I'd want to get rid of the problem, but I hate throwing all sorts of meds in the tank just because. Are some of these easier on the fish than others? Other living things in the tank are a betta and oto cats and plants.
Good position, and good you mentioned the tankmates. Would have been also good if you mentioned the country you are in, so we know what is available. Scrap General Cure, will not do anything. Prazi -- may or may not work, depends on the parasite. I don't use it myself. Better option: levamisole. Best option: flubendazole : generally safe, no adverse effects on fish, nearly 100% effective (important: if you administer it correctly), only adverse effect is on snails (wipeout), extra bonuses: while these are not the intended targets it also usually wipes out Ich and often gill flukes... pretty wide spectrum little toy.

Can be obtained online as Wormer Plus from the UK (they ship to most countries), or from Dr. Harrison in the US (ships to the US only), I like the first brand better.

http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/
http://wormerplus.co.uk/

Liz1159
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 3:15 pm

Re: Another Ich Post

Post by Liz1159 » Sat May 02, 2015 9:50 am

I'm going to order the Flubendazol from the link you recommended (I'm in the U.S.). I filled out a form to initiate the ordering process.

It sounds like I do a water change, dose 1/4 tsp. powder dissolved in heated tank water (my tank is 15g long), then wait ten days (really, no water change during this?) then do another large water change (90%!). I am not running carbon since before rid ich +. Is that right? It seems so simple. Or is that too strong? The PDF I read listed .25.- .5 tsp. for 20 gallons.

I'm upping their numbers to 4 or 5 as soon as my LFS can order them...and after i fix this potential parasite issue.

User avatar
mikev
Posts: 3103
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 6:06 pm
Location: NY

Re: Another Ich Post

Post by mikev » Sat May 02, 2015 10:16 am

then wait ten days (really, no water change during this?)
Sure can do water changes, just re-dose after the change.

Regarding ordering more fish: quite often it is better to order online rather than from a lfs. Depending on where you are this may or may not be more expensive but chances of not dealing with Ick again are better. And I would aim even a bit higher .. 8-10.

One more thing: sids can be nasty to other fish. No predictions here, maybe you will be ok, but they also may decide to take betta or otos apart one day... I heard of cases them attacking both top and bottom fish (corydoras).

plaalye
Posts: 887
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:35 pm
Location: Bellingham, Wa.

Re: Another Ich Post

Post by plaalye » Sat May 02, 2015 11:22 am

Liz1159 wrote:I'm going to order the Flubendazol from the link you recommended (I'm in the U.S.). I filled out a form to initiate the ordering process.

It sounds like I do a water change, dose 1/4 tsp. powder dissolved in heated tank water (my tank is 15g long), then wait ten days (really, no water change during this?) then do another large water change (90%!). I am not running carbon since before rid ich +. Is that right? It seems so simple. Or is that too strong? The PDF I read listed .25.- .5 tsp. for 20 gallons.

I'm upping their numbers to 4 or 5 as soon as my LFS can order them...and after i fix this potential parasite issue.
You don't need to use tank water. I have a glass jar(13oz) with a tight fitting lid. Measure meds and add hot tap water. Add a few drops of prime if you like and shake vigorously. I add the meds as I'm refilling the tank, this helps dissolve the powder. I also like to drop my water level a bit while treating. Extra oxygen is good and the turbulence helps dissolve the powder.
Is there substrate in the tank? Rocks/wood? Bare bottom is better.If so measure from the top of substrate to top of water level to calculate your dosage. I'm not sure you can overdose flubendazole(Mike?) so round up.

User avatar
mikev
Posts: 3103
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 6:06 pm
Location: NY

Re: Another Ich Post

Post by mikev » Sat May 02, 2015 1:35 pm

I'm not sure you can overdose flubendazole(Mike?)
You really cannot due to the solubility limits, but one thing I always wondered about : if you have a large amount of undissolved flubendazole dropping on/near food in the tank and a fish eats it..... what would happen?

plaalye
Posts: 887
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:35 pm
Location: Bellingham, Wa.

Re: Another Ich Post

Post by plaalye » Sat May 02, 2015 1:59 pm

I would think it would be beneficial and treat internally. Same as food soaked in fenbedazole. I get it pretty well dissolved with my method so not an issue. The worst I get is a slight film around the water surface edge which I agitate manually.

Liz1159
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 3:15 pm

Re: Another Ich Post

Post by Liz1159 » Sun May 03, 2015 1:38 pm

I don't want to overstock so I'll look into bringing their numbers up beyond 5 if/when I upgrade my tank. who is your favorite online retailer for loaches?

And thanks for the heads up on aggression: everything I had read pointed to them being very peaceful, but I'll certainly watch them. I'll probably end up pulling my betta into the quarantine tank once it's done being used as such so he can live out his later years in peace.

Flubendazol is on the way!

Thank you again for everything!

User avatar
mikev
Posts: 3103
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 6:06 pm
Location: NY

Re: Another Ich Post

Post by mikev » Sun May 03, 2015 3:37 pm

No, they tend to be aggressive albeit you may wait for their normal personalities to evolve.... this would not happen until they fully settle in the tank.

You are not overstocking too much (15g, right? and the fish is 1" or so?) if you keep up with water changes, it is simply easier to quarantine new group once than stretch the fun.

Online retailers: check the price including shipping, depending on where you are you may save a lot on shipping from a particular retailer. Generally Wetspot (OR) and Gunpowder (FL) are reliable with Ich still possible but quite uncommon (at this point my esteemed friend on this thread may start screaming :P ). Wetspot has them for $13 now ($10 if one buys 6+). But check others too. Check Aquabid... well, I just did, there are two more vendors but I'd be reluctant ordering even free fish from these two.... next week there may be others.

plaalye
Posts: 887
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:35 pm
Location: Bellingham, Wa.

Re: Another Ich Post

Post by plaalye » Sun May 03, 2015 10:18 pm

"everything I had read pointed to them being very peaceful"
I think you're reading at the wrong places.

"at this point my esteemed friend on this thread may start screaming " :lol: Esteemed? :D

My recent experience just emphasizes the need for proper quarantine. But...even if you do it right, problems can still arise.

If I was going to buy sids I'd first look locally. I've seen some awful looking specimens that I assume were poorly bred. I'd want to see them first if possible. But if I was to buy online, wetspot is not a bad gamble.

Liz1159
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 3:15 pm

Re: Another Ich Post

Post by Liz1159 » Mon May 04, 2015 12:01 am

I have a few decent LFS. But if they can't come through with an order in the next two weeks or so, I'll move forward with online resources. Thanks for the recommendations. I'd found wetspot but the Florida vendor is new to me.

Once the betta is pulled out of this tank, I'll have 3 oto cats, 6 black phantom tetras (hanging out in quarantine now, luckily not involved in the ich crisis), plus the sids. Currently everyone is a juvenile (except one tetra who has at least graduated high school), but I'm not sure how quickly everyone will grow up. I figured 5 was a safe number based on aqadvisor. Would you put a bigger sid group in there? 15g long with an aqua clear 20. I'm pretty diligent with my water changes.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 45 guests