pH and the clown loach

[paconubbins]

Is it possible the clown loach prefers a pH below 7? I introduced loaches a little over 2 weeks ago and learned several things so far....my tank wasn't done cycling and my tap water has a pH of 8. Initially I noticed the ammonia going up so I started one a day water changes. Then the pH went up too. I read that as pH rises ammonium converts to the more toxic state of ammonia. True? This is quite a problem. The loaches are stressed but they seem slightly better since I lowered the pH to 7.2 (with chemicals). There was a brief spell when the loaches seemed to be fine...at that time the pH was in the mid to upper 6's. Should I try to lower the pH even more? How?

[helen nightingale]

calm down there! thats quite a dramtic change in pH.

yes, loaches do really need slightly acidic water rather than too alkaline water, but because pH is a logarythmic scale, pH 8 to pH 6 is a huge difference, and that can shock the fish.

chemicals can often lead to instability in the pH of the tank, and that can shock the fish too.

clown loaches are sensitive fish, and are definately not the fish to be using to put in a new tank. sorry!

you are right that you need to try and lower the pH and definately lower ammonia. some people use prime - i havent used that myself, but i think others have had success with it.

how big are your water changes? try doing enough to lower the ammonia, but keep the pH stable. if you can, buy RO water or an RO unit, rather than use chemicals.

[Diana]

What is the GH and KH of your tap water?
What is the pH of the tap water when the water sits out for 24-48 hours?

Rather than chasing pH, get the GH and KH right and let the pH be whatever it wants to be.

GH is General Hardness, a measure of Calcium and Magnesium. When literature says a fish wants hard or soft water this is the value they are referring to. This is more important than pH.

KH is Carbonate hardness. This is one of the most common buffers in the tap water. If the KH is high then you are just going to yoyo the pH all over the place when you add acids and stress the fish.

Perhaps the Clown Loaches felt better after you lowered the pH because the ammonia was in the less toxic form. Yes, this is true. Ammonia is found in 2 forms in the aquarium, and those forms are pH dependent.
Ammonium, NH4+, is less toxic, and is in greater abundance in low pH water.
Ammonia, NH3 is more toxic, and is found in increasing quantity as the pH rises.

Many dechlorinators will lock up ammonia. Read the label.
Prime, Amquel Plus, Chloramine Buster... The label will indicate if more dechlor can be added (above the normal dose) to help with ammonia problems.

Be sure you have a test kit that works with the brand of ammonia locking/dechlor that you are using. Some ammonia tests will still test positive for ammonia even though it is locked up. Other tests can tell you how much free ammonia there is.

Even more important than figuring out what are the optimum conditions for Clown Loaches as a species is to make your tank match the tank in the store so the particular individuals you have are not going through osmotic shock when they are added to your tank.
If the KH and GH are high in the store, then your tank needs to match that, so the fish are comfortable. It may take several weeks to lower the GH and KH to where the species prefers it, when the individuals have been kept in hard alkaline water. Do not force them to make this adjustment all at once! Their metabolism cannot do it.

[paconubbins]

Whew, that's a lot of stuff. To begin...pH out of the tap is 8, after sitting around 24+ hours it drops to maybe 7.5 (that's with a water conditioner). When ammonia was up I was doing 10% water changes a day. pH was 7.6 when I added the pH neutralizer. It's now 7.2. Ammonia seems constant...0.05. Don't know the GH or KH...didn't know that was something to watch. For what it's worth...I did my research and the tank was up and running for 2 months before adding loaches. I thought I cycled it with 8 serpae tetra (which seem perfectly happy by the way). I'd prefer not to add chemicals but after discussing the situation with the LFS we decided to see if we could de-stress the loaches and then address the long term. I'm really not sure why the ammonia is still high. Not cycled yet? The tetras were added on Feb 10 and the tank had been up and running at least 10 days before that. Something I'm doing to inhibit the cycle?

[Diana]

"Cycled" is a relative term.
Your tank had grown enough bacteria to handle the wastes from the Serpae Tetras. Not more. When you add more fish they add more waste than the bacteria population can handle. There is not enough bacteria to remove the added waste, so it shows as ammonia. The bacteria must grow to match the new bioload. The tank is cycling again, exposing the Serpaes to a second round of ammonia burns, and brown blood disease from nitrite, and exposing the Clown Loaches to these risks. Much better to use the fishless cycle.

Water that has a pH that drops overnight needs to be handled differently than water whose chemistry is stable.

You can continue doing small water changes with this water, but not large ones. The pH drop that you noticed overnight, sitting on the counter is still happening each time new water is added to the tank. This is the change that can stress the fish.
When new tap water is added to stable water (tank water) then the amount of change is based on the % of each water.
10% new + 90% old water produces so little change that the fish are not bothered by the pH change, but this small a water change also does not remove much ammonia.
25% new + 75% old will produce a change in pH that may be measured on a test, but is barely a problem for the fish. It may raise the pH temporarily enough to cause a problem with ammonia in the tank, though. It will dilute the ammonia a bit, but maybe not enough to keep up with the production of ammonia by the fish. Depending on why the pH is changing there may be side issues going on.
50% new water + 50% old water will create too much pH and related changes. I would not do this large a water change with water fresh out of the tap. It sure will help with the ammonia, though.

I would prepare the water a day ahead. Put tap water into a garbage can or other large container and add a pump and a heater. (Aquarium heater). By circulating the water in the garbage can you will encourage any chemical change to happen quickly. Keeping the water warm will also help, and will make it the same temperature as the tank so the fish do not have a temperature shock. Add dechlorinator to this water, but just the dose needed for the chlorine or chloramine.
When you actually do the water change add another dose of an ammonia neutralizing material (the dechlor is fine for this if it is labeled for it) to neutralize ammonia remaining in the tank after the water change.

What I would do now:
1) Set up a larger water change by preparing the water today for a water change tomorrow.
2) Get the GH and KH test kits. Post results ASAP. (These tests are on the 5-way or 6-way strips, and Aquarium Pharmaceuticals sells both in one box)
3) Get one of these products: Tetra Safe Start or Dr. Tim's One and Only.
These contain the exact species of nitrifying bacteria that your tank is lacking. Do not accept the salesman's word that some other 'bacteria in a bottle' is 'just as good'. It is not. Wrong bacteria. You are looking for Nitrospiros spp. Don't waste money on anything else.
4) Based on the test results for GH I would do as big a water change as possible, or a couple of them, morning and evening. "As big as possible" will be whatever size water change will make the GH vary by not more than 2 German degrees of hardness. (If you use the strips this will be just about 40 ppm).
5) After doing a couple of big water changes I would add whichever of those 2 products with the proper bacteria you have been able to find. No more water changes for a few days until these bacteria take hold in the tank.

"Do something to de-stress the Loaches"
Like what? My suggestions are based on 2 things: Ammonia is the biggest stress they are dealing with, and possible water chemistry issues based on GH is the other stress.
Ammonia test combined with pH test is the basis I would go by for the ammonia stress.
GH is the test I would go by for the other.

My goal as suggested above is to do as large a water change as often as possible to relieve the ammonia stress without causing more GH stress. It is hard to write a recipe for this, since we do not even know what the tap water GH is.
Knowing the KH of tank and tap will help figure out why the pH is varying so much, and perhaps suggest a way to stabilize the pH at a level the Loaches will be most comfortable. Without the KH value it is impossible to say what will work.

"Up and running for 10 days before adding fish"
A 10 day equipment break in is no more useful than an overnight check of equipment. You could have been half way through the fishless cycle in this time, though, and have really done something while waiting.

[paconubbins]

OK...most recent numbers....pH was steady at 7.2 and has risen slightly to 7.3. Oxygen was 6.96. Ammonia (NH3) is 0.81. Alkalinity is 31 in the tank and 16 out of the tap. I know ammonia is way high. Oxygen is lower than it was (used to be close to eight) but still at 80% saturation. I moved the filter output to circulate the water better so hopefully oxygen increases. What should alkalinity be? Obviously ammonia is the biggest problem and I should have done a fishless cycle but since I'm where I'm at what's best for the future? If I do large water changes am I inhibiting the cycle?

Diana - that's good info, although, I must admit I didn't even see your response until yesterday. I've looked locally for the products you mentioned with no luck but will keep trying. Incorporating water change advice though. One additional question...should I vacuum the gravel as I'm removing water? That's been my normal procedure but I don't want to do anything to slow the cycle.

Thanx

[Diana]

What units are you reporting the alkalinity in? Those are weird numbers. Alkalinity is also carbonates, KH.

This is very low if it is ppm.
This is WAY high, if it is German Degrees of Hardness.

Note the higher alkalinity in the tank. This could come from rocks, gravel, or sand if any of these have a limestone sort of origin. The rise in KH could also come from certain chemicals you add to the tank.
Higher KH is generally associated with higher pH, but not always.

What are the ingredients, the brand name and the full name of the pH altering product(s) you have used?

Yes, that ammonia is WAY too high. Get busy with the water changes. Did you find out if your dechlorinator can be used to help out with high ammonia levels? If not, you may need a special product to help out that locks up ammonia. You want the ammonia to still be there, but maximum level ought to be .25 ppm. The nitrifying bacteria can usually use ammonia that has been locked up by dechlorinators and similar products. Water change to remove as much as you can, then use the ammonia locking product (or an extra dose of dechlor) to lock up the remainder.

The nitrifying bacteria are growing on the gravel. Vacuuming it could disturb them. On the other hand that poop needs to be removed, it will contribute the the ammonia problem. I would vacuum gently, not stir the gravel around. Just work into the top of the gravel enough to remove the worst of the debris.

Feeding less food will help, too.
Feeding vegetables (low protein) can help. Try Zucchini, cucumber and other vegetables that we like. Most Tetras are not vegetable eaters, but many Loaches will love them.

[paconubbins]

pH adjuster is a Seaachem product called Neutral Regulator. Contains phosphate buffers and conditioning salts. I used it in the tank once and have begun using it during water changes. The label says it removes chlorine, chloramine and ammonia.

Water conditioner I had been using during water changes and twice in the tank (because it claims to detoxify ammonia and heavy metals as well as neutralize chlorine and chloramines) is an Aqueon product.

In desperation I added a maintenance level of Cycle (a Hagen product) that claims to add beneficial bacteria to the tank. It's also labeled Nutrafin...not sure if that's a product name or manufactuer.

The alkalinity is reported in ppm.

[Diana]

OK, thanks for filling that in.

Fish that want "low pH" really thrive in water with a low level of minerals. The actual pH is not so critical.

The only way to get less minerals in water is to remove the minerals that are there. Adding phosphates and 'conditioning salts' is not the way to do this. I would stop using this product.
It is like having a bucket or rocks. The only way to get less rocks in the bucket is to remove the rocks. Adding more rocks to the bucket will not help.

Do you have a test that measures GH, General Hardness? This is actually the better test for figuring out if the water is the right hardness for most fish. It is a measure of calcium and magnesium. There may certainly be other minerals in the water that are not measured by this test, but it is a good place to start.

If you want to get a feel for how much total minerals and salts are in the water there are meters (not too expensive) that measure the total dissolved solids.

KH of 16 ppm out of the tap is so low in carbonates that I am not surprised the pH varies all over the place. KH is a carbonate buffer, and 16 ppm is so low it is not enough to buffer the pH. The water needs something closer to 50-60 ppm KH before the pH is stable, and even at this level of carbonates is barely stable, but will be a lot better than the 16 ppm you have in the tap.
Try this test: Put a gallon or two of water in a bucket. Add 1/8 teaspoon of baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) to the water. Stir well. Measure the KH and pH after the baking soda has dissolved. Check it every few days for a week and see how stable it is.
The actual recipe that I use is 1 teaspoon in a 29 gallon tank, and this will raise the KH by 2 German degrees of Hardness, or almost 40 ppm. Add this to your 16 ppm and this ought to make the tap water pH stable enough. If you like this recipe, then add a little baking soda to the new water when you do water changes, and the pH in the tank ought to stabilize. I am not trying to target a specific pH, just trying to stabilize the pH where ever it wants to be. Anywhere from 6.5 to 7.5 is a good middle of the road value for pH, but a little higher or lower is also fine, as long as it is stable.

With the KH at 31 ppm in the tank this is still not high enough to be stable.

A dechlorinator that also neutralizes ammonia is good. Check the label and see if you can use a double dose if needed to remove the extra ammonia.
Some test kits will still measure ammonia that has been locked up, so you do not need to keep adding ammonia locking products. There may be a specific test kit that will work with the ammonia locking product you are using that will report free ammonia.

In the normal course of cycling, the ammonia spike may be followed by a nitrite spike. There are several species of bacteria. The ones that remove ammonia grow relatively fast. The ones that remove nitrite are slower growing. The result is that the extra ammonia produced by the additional fish will build up (do water changes to keep it below .25 ppm) and the bacteria that remove it get busy and turn it into nitrite. The nitrite can spike pretty high before the nitrite removing bacteria grow to a big enough population to deal with it.
Do enough water changes to keep the nitrite under 1 ppm.
Add salt to the tank (sodium chloride) at the rate of 1 teaspoon per 20 gallons to reduce the amount of nitrite that can cross the gills and enter the fishes' blood. Nitrite in the blood causes Brown Blood Disease.
There are some dechlorinators that will also neutralize nitrite.
Prime is one such product.

Nutrafin (company) Cycle (product) contains the wrong bacteria. You want a product that contains Nitrospiros spp. to boost the population in the tank and filter.

[paconubbins]

Not much to add but here's new test results, comments and questions...
Oxygen was 7.26 this morning, ph 7.3, nitrites and nitrates both 0 and ammonia still high. Is it some how possible there's no bacteria breaking down ammonia? Isn't it odd to have 0 nitrites and 0 nitrates after 2 months but have high ammonia?

Also, pH is really not fluctuating much. Now granted, I did add the pH neutralizer but ever since then it's only ranged from 7.6 to 7.2. The LFS did measure once at 7.9 but I never got that high of a result (I'm using a meter instead of a colormetric test).

Finally, I have access to deionized water (I think that's the same as RO?) and can add that if it would help...it wouldn't have the minerals.

Still don't have a hardness test but working on it.

Thanx

[Diana]

After 2 months there should be plenty of bacteria. Even if they are not up to handling the new fishes' waste load they sure should be converting a certain amount of ammonia to nitrite and nitrate.

With this sort of history:
Fish-in cycle with small fish population,
Add a lot more fish

I would expect a small bacteria population, suited to the original fish population, and a gradually growing population to meet the new levels.
I would expect to see all three forms of nitrogen in this tank.

At this point I would search REALLY HARD for Dr. Tim's One and Only or Tetra Safe Start for this tank, or else return the fish. Loaches are not going to handle the toxic levels.

In the mean time keep up the water changes to keep the:
ammonia under .25 ppm
nitrite under 1 ppm (if it ever shows up)
nitrate under 10 ppm (ditto)

Live plants can also help, if there is enough light.