pH & hardness.

[sophie]

Water, water everywhere...

I have the world's most peculiar water. It comes from the Elan valley in Wales, which was once a perfectly normal, very attractice, inhabited valley until someone in power decided to flood it and use it as a reservoir. The water that comes out of it is dead soft and basic, which is a combination that occurs almost nowhere in nature. No fish that I have found have evolved to live in these conditions... It comes out of the tap at a pH of or over 8 and settles overnight to somewhat under that. In my tanks I have bogwood, coral and shells - to stop the pH crashing and, slightly bloody-mindedly, to bring it down from it's ludicrous starting point.

don't like chiclids and couldn't face adding hardness, and I realised that I was never going to get fish that liked my water. I also decided I didn;t fancy messing with the chemistry on a regular basis, so what I've ended up with is water at about 7.8 (been a while since I tested and can't remember exactly) with very little hardness. In it I've got loaches, rasboras, dwarf gourami, white clouds and goldfish, and while I'm not at all sure what water goldfish actually prefer, the water's on the basic side for WCMs (though they're extremely tolerant fish) and very basic indeed for loaches & harlequin rasboras. However the softness is about right! Anyway, the dojos, kuhlis & rasboras have been happy in there for some time and the yoyos look pretty happy so far. So I'm wondering if hardness is more important than pH for fishes wellbeing? (Is this the osmotic shock issue?) The dojos have grown loads and while I hadn't noticed the pangios growing, when I added some new ones to the tank I was amazed at how small and slimline they looked next to the originals.

any discussion welcome

[Diana]

Yes, it is the osmotic issue. Total Disloved Solids is really the item to be concerned with. While some problems are directly related to the pH (ammonia vs ammonium, for example) most of the problems blamed on pH are often due to changing the TDS too fast for the fish.

As you, yourself point out, the combination of very soft water and high pH is not normally found in nature, so fish are accustomed to water of 2 types:
low pH, soft water. This water doesn't have lots of minerals, salts or other stuff in it.
OR
high pH, hard water. This water has more minerals and salts in it.

The fishs' systems are accustommed to the amount of water that enters its body when it is in a particular sort of water.

Of course there are many in-between fish, and most fish tollerate quite a range of conditions. The important thing to remember is to acclimate the fish slowly to new conditions. When you buy a fish from a store that does not have this odd water, quarentine the fish in water that matches the store's water, and change the water slowly, over several weeks, to match your aquarium water.

[Mark in Vancouver]

Off topic - Diana, have you posted before? Very good response and I noticed your 21 tank note. You've got to take photos! I'm dying to see what your set up looks like.

[Diana]

No photos, sorry, kids have custody of the camera, and I am permitted visitation only when the batteries are dead.

As for the knowledge, I am a mod at Fish Geeks and this Q comes up a lot, and I have done my research.

My own tanks have:
RO water with peat for Discus
Neutral or slightly acidic, medium soft water for community fish (some with peat, some without)
Slightly harder, alkaline water for Rainbows, and Swordtails and a few other fish that like this sort of water
Higher pH/alkaline water for Lake Tang
Low end brackish.

It is a regular part of fish keeping that I buy fish from local stores, test the water in the bag for KH and adjust the Q-tank to match, then spend their Q-time acclimatizing the fish to the main tank that he will be going in.

[sypp]

Been lurking for a while, but since our tank (75g 48x18) is establishing it's cycle it's time to register and ask.

How hard of water can clown and kuhli loaches handle? The idea is to get 5 clowns, and 3 kuhli (maybe). We've read that loaches are not only sensitive to changes in TDS, but also in the overall amount.

Our tap water is:
pH: 7.8
KH: 23 deg dH
GH: 26 deg dH (city spec. is ~400ppm)

Since the LFS's here carry laoches it seems to be a non-issue but figured it's best to ask as I've never seen anyone post with water as hard as ours. (petsolutions is about 3 miles down the road from us, and I can't see them altering their water significantly...)

Instead of making another topic, does the 5+3 (+dithers) seem like a good combo for this size tank? It 'sounds' like the clowns (5) would not be enough company if we only had 1 kuhli to allow the kuhli to... well... be a kuhli. True?

[mizpriz]

Since the LFS's here carry laoches it seems to be a non-issue but figured it's best to ask as I've never seen anyone post with water as hard as ours.

I have rather high pH (around 8.0) and hard water. I have 4 clowns, 2 yoyos, 2 dojos, and 1 kuhli (Myer's). I've had the clowns over 2 years, and the dojos about a year. I've not lost a single clown, in fact they and the yoyos are the most active, playful guys in the tank, day and night. I'm planning to add more yoyos and kuhlis as soon as I can find some.

My tank is a 55-gallon. Besides the loaches, I have a few cories, a BN pleco, and assorted different types of tetras. Most of them have been alive and healthy in my tank for over a year. I'd think that you have room for at least 5 clowns and more than 3 kuhlis, with weekly water changes of course. From what I've read, the more kuhlis, the happier.

Acclimation is definitely crucial. All my new fish are slowly acclimated, and I've lost very few of them that way. I started out with 2 kuhlis (the only ones in the pet store), but during acclimation somehow the bag got a hole in it and the process was disturbed. I lost one kuhli the next day.

[sophie]

Diana, thank you. very useful and much appreciated

[mikev]

[ I started out with 2 kuhlis (the only ones in the pet store), but during acclimation somehow the bag got a hole in it and the process was disturbed. I lost one kuhli the next day.

May not be your fault at all.

New khulis have a very high chance of dying, and this is not related to acclimating.

I've lost total of 12 over the last year (please read before jumping to judgement) and developed some statistics by rechecking back with the stores, the statistics seems to match my losses against the losses at the store. All of the 12 deaths occurred within 5 days of the purchase, most within 3.

4 dead out of 8 (lfs: about half dead out of 20).
0 dead out of 5 (lfs: 20% dead out of 100).
6 dead out of 6 (lfs: 100% dead out of a 100).
0 dead out of 2 (N/A, lfs had them for two weeks).
1 dead out of 6 (lfs: 20% dead out of a 100).
1 dead out of 2 (did not check with lfs, but the tank I bought mine from had 2 alive and 2 dead already, I am on Day 5 on this one.).

There is something seriously wrong about shipping khulis and any khuli that was not at the store for more than a week has a good chance of dying on you quickly. OTOH, Khulis are not particularly sensitive to acclimating.

======================
APPEND ONLY: To clarify the last phrase which might have been too brief and conveyed a wrong message (thanks, Shari).

Of course, you need to acclimate them like any other fish, and I actually now go overboard (2hours, despite close parameters at the store and my tank) in trying to improve the survival rate. But I don't think this has any effect (other than making the owner feel better), and the correlation between my losses and the store losses is pretty good, and there is no, even anecdotal, evidence that Khulis are in the same extra-sensitive league as, for example, Otos.