New Loachowner Desparate for HELP!

[Loachlover]

Hi All, just started our very first tank - 20 gal about 2.5 weeks ago. Last Thursday my two clown loaches developed what I believe is ICH. They both are entirely covered in white spots from head to tail. So.. we started a treatment Friday AM using Quick Cure. We have the temp in the tank at about 82 degrees. The loaches are eating and swimming well and appear finem-just covered in spot!. None of the other fish (2 Mollies, 2 Bala Sharks and One Sailfin Pleco) are showing any spots at all. All fish are well, eating, swimming fine. After 3 full days of the Quick Cure, we did a 30% water change to remove the Quick Cure as there was no change at all to the amount of spots on the loaches. I put my filter back in and am clearing out this med to try the CopperSafe approach. Also added in about 1 tsp of Aquarium salt as that was also recommended off the web. Am concerned that the spots are just not going away at all. HELP! I really, really like these little guys and want to keep them around! Am I taking the proper steps?

PS. Tank parameters prior to water change:
Amonia 1.2/PH 8.0 and Nitrite - 0.8 (Thus the significant water change). :I know these values are high and this was also why we changed the water.

[shari]

Here is a link to more than you ever wanted to know about Ich:

http://www.caloriesperhour.com/fish/notes_ich.html

hth

[Loachlover]

If I am treating ICH can I/should I still use Cycle when doing my water changes? My Nitrite is high at 0.8 and the water change did not bring it down. Not sure how else to address it without the Cycle. Suggestions?
Loachlover

[sully]

Nitrites bind to the hemoglobin of the blood. As a result the uptake of oxygen is reduced. Many call it Brown Blood Disease. A tablespoon of salt per 5 gallons of water will solve the nitrite problem.

[tttnjfttt]

Also, i know you are trying to do the best thing for your fish by using cycle, but in my experience it is useless. I have tried to use this product two different times. THe first time was to cycle my tank, and the fish i had at the time died and i had some very high ammona and nitrite readings. The second time i tried this product was to end a mini-cycle. I had upgraded tanks, and my filter needed a little hlep keeping up. THe highest ammonia and nitrite levels i saw was .5, and it took an entire week to go away. That is how long i would have expected it to take to resolve the mini-cycle without anything.

If you can find Bio-Spira, which has been constantly refrigerated, that will end your ammonia and nitrite problems. Basically, bio-spira is bottled bacteria.

[Loachlover]

One loach remains in hidding and covered with ICH. The other is now remaining at the surface in one corner of the tank. Appears to be trying to take in air. The bala sharks are hanging around it. Is this fish in trouble? Is there anything I can do? Just not sure what else to do for these poor guys as I have just changed 40% of water last night, took out old ICH meds, started the Coppersafe this AM, added in 5 tsps of salt and upped the temp to 84. Are they just too far gone now to help? They were both swimming quite well last night and this AM but... did not seem as interested in food as previously. STILL NEED SOME HELP! Next steps to try?? Nitrite is still at 0.8 and Amonia is at 1.2. Did put in some EasyBalance last night to try and level off the above values.

[Baz Bluck]

Had the same problem only last week and the advice given to me from this forum was to use Protozin - Fantastic result. I am over the moon.

[Loachlover]

Thanks Baz, few questions, is this an ICH med? If so, how long did it take to clear the disease. My guys are getting worse as neither one eat anything today and now the other fish are starting to pick on them. Really need to find something to turn this around. Am on Coppersafe now and will try that one but the meds say to keep it up for ONE MONTH! Not comfortable with adding that much meds (especially copper) to this small tank.

[Baz Bluck]

protozin is used for the control of all protozoan and fungal infections e.g whitespot, fungus, velvet costiasis and trichodiniasis. It is a 4 day treatment and several of my loaches were covered in white spot and were constantly rubbing themselves against objects. I noticed that all the spots and the rubbing stopped on day three of the treatment, but you must carry out the full treatment. Upon advice given I only used half the recommended dose as loaches can be sensitive to it or something like that. My loaches are now spot free and there is no rubbing. I hope this helps.

[ClownMob]

from those readings and length of time the tank has been set-up your tank is trying to cycle andthe clowns being sensitive arent reacting to it well.

I would do 35-40% water changes every day to relieve some stress while your tank finishes its cycle, until those ammonia and nitrite readings get under control.

fingers crossed for your clowns.

[Loachlover]

Thanks Clownmob but now I am really confused as a long time fish owner just today told me NOT to do water changes as that does NOT allow the tank to cycle. This is the same info as the LFS indicated as well. Do I or DO I NOT continue to do a water change. While I expect to do 10% with the meds on board I think that 30 odd % seems very high at this time. BUT since I am not even in the realm of knowledgeable about Fish I am going to defer to others for their opinions? Still in need of help! Loaches are now lying on the bottom, barely moving, still covered in spots and now not eating. Is the end near??

[Erik]

nt

[Erik]

I hate to say but a 20 gal 2.5weeks old tank is practically a death sentence for any fish especially loaches.
Hagen Cycle is magical snake oil and does nothing.

It takes 4-8 weeks roughly to cycle a tank.

There are several ways to do this.

1) Do a fishless cycle. (but you have fish already so that is out) lookit up on the net thou.

2) tranfer either some filter media (best) and or some substrate from a cycled tank. Maybe the lfs could give a used filter foam

3) Get some fasty growing plants like water sprite or hygrophelia to help use the ammonia and nitrites. Of course this depends on your lighting situation.
At least 30 watts of flourescent lighting will work

4) Absolutely get some Seachem Prime water conditioner.
It can be used up to a 5x dose at this level it will turn the ammonia and nitrite into safe compounds.
There are other products similiar but only this one still makes the nutrients available to plants and filter bacteria. (nitrobacter)

The water changes will definitely slow down the cycling but your fish will die without doing them. 20% every other day until the tank cycles.
Please note that use of prime will distort hagen ammonia test kit readings.
Only seachem's kit is compatible.

As for the ich problem the only ich med I trust is Maracide.
The other way to kill ich is turn up your heater very slowy until your tank is 86' degrees! This temp can kill ich in the free swimming stage of the life cycle. YOU MUST add lots of air stones bubble walls etc as warmer water will contain alot less oxygen for your fish.

Btw the sponge component in your filter must never be changed for a fresh one. Just squeeze it out in a bucket of tank or dechlorinated water.
The majority of the bacteria in a filter lives in the sponge.
If you can fit more than one sponge like aquaclear fillters do, do it and toss the carbon out it is useless except for removing meds from your tank.



This is all stuff I wish some one had told me when I started out.
Keep us updated
Regards
Erik

[shari]

Yes, the end is near. From nitrate or ammonia poisoning, if not ich. Ich compromises the gills, if they can't breathe they die, just like us.

Understanding the water cycle is part of fishkeeping. Here is a link for you:

http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-cycling.html

You have used your fish to start the cycle but they may not live through it. If your lfs has a product called 'Bacter Vital' (it's in the refigerated section) you could try using that to kick start the cycle. Unfortunately, you are between a rock and a hard place. You need to lower the ammonia and nitrates, and water changes are the best way to do that. However, doing them will slow down the cycling process somewhat. If you want the fish to survive, I have to agree with clownmob that the water changes are necessary. But at this point they may not work anyway.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings, but the truth is out there. If you lose the fish read up before you try again. In fact, read up NOW so you have a better chance of getting through this successfully. We can advise, but the best way to learn about fishkeeping is BOTH personal research and asking for advice when you can't find what you need yourself.

hth

[sophie]

Thanks Clownmob but now I am really confused as a long time fish owner just today told me NOT to do water changes as that does NOT allow the tank to cycle. This is the same info as the LFS indicated as well. Do I or DO I NOT continue to do a water change. While I expect to do 10% with the meds on board I think that 30 odd % seems very high at this time. BUT since I am not even in the realm of knowledgeable about Fish I am going to defer to others for their opinions? Still in need of help! Loaches are now lying on the bottom, barely moving, still covered in spots and now not eating. Is the end near??

water changes. if the tank is cycling with loaches in it, do water changes. the toxins are likely to kill them otherwise You won't change out all the available good bacteria; they reproduce exponentially so you will build a good population of them. You're very heavily stocked for a new tank, so do the water changes. This will interfere with the ich medications, but it's the lesser of two evils.

your clowns sound fairly sick; I'm sorry. they're not good fish for a new tank anyway, and a cycle would be very bad for them. If they don't make it, wait till your tank is mature and get yourself some smaaaall loaches. 20 gallons isn't really big enough for most of them, I don't think. Those sharks will get HUGE, too. (and I mean huge. well over a foot) and I'm not a pleco person, but some of them get massive and mollies are brackish fish.

I'm sorry to be the bearer of doom and gloom, but if any of your fish make it through the ich & cycle, I would take them back to the shop - which has given you lousy advice - cycle the tank without fish (you can do this by feeding it fishfood , amongst other things) and then do some research about which fish would suit your tank.

very best of luck - and stick about, there are some very experienced, knowledgeable and helpful people here. me, I'm pretty much a novice.