Clown loaches and stunting. Any references?

[chefkeith]

Would be interesting to find out the reasons for the differences, but that would be enough to show the LFS, I think. Has this ever been done?

My tanks are connected together like that, but my smallest tank is 85 gallons. Only 5 or 6 small clown loaches (about 2") call this 4 ft, 85g tank home and they have the choice to swim over to my larger tanks if they wanted. All my larger clowns prefer to live in the 6 ft 190g tank (or the 6ft river tank when I had that set-up). I have a new 8 ft river tank being built right now and I gaurentee all my bigger clowns will swim over to that tank when it's all set up.

Click on my fishroom link to watch a video of my tanks.

[janger]

chefkeith, that's a cool setup. what are the dimensions of the bridges? Like cross-section area?

[chefkeith]

They're 8 inches wide and 4" tall right now. I'll probably build 8" x 8" bridges when the clowns get bigger.

[Ippo456]

That is the neatest set-up I've seen so far.
Did you make all that?!
VERY IMPRESSIVE!!!!
I wish I have the time & skills to do all that.
Did you learn how to make all that by trial & error?

[Keith Wolcott]

If they grew at the same rate in your experiment it would not convince me of anything since a bare tank could be a stunting factor.

For me, finding the exact causes of stunting is not that important. It is also very difficult to "prove" what the causes are and if it exists at all. It is also difficult to prove that keeping a person locked in an 8 foot by 8 foot by 8 foot cell is a hardship as long as they are well fed. What I think is clear, is that if you have a fish that is curious and active, swims very fast, and requires very clean water, then a larger tank will certainly provide a better environment for the fish. To put them in an environment where they cannot swim fast for at least a short distance without hitting a wall, so that they cannot really even flex their muscles is just not very nice. What I don't know is, "how big is big enough?" This is where I think it best to trust the experienced members of this group who have decades of experience keeping loaches and have seen first hand how they behave in different environments over long periods of time. They have seen what conditions keep a loach not only healthy, but active and interested and interesting as opposed to just hiding all the time. So when Emma and others say that we really need a larger tank, I for one am going to listen.

Keith

[sully]

another way to look at stunting is from the other end. google "fish growth". several interesting papers discuss the energy available to a fish and how it is utilized. Tank crowding (space/stress), Water quality (waste and the ensueing disease potentials), and diet (what is and is not fed) all play into it. sort of interesting to look at both sides of the equation. They really are part of the same issue--afterall stunting is nothing more than a lackof or inappropriate growth.

[shari2]

my admittedly unscientific method for knowing when a tank is too small for a clown loach is this:

If it can make it from one side of the tank to the other is less than one second, it's getting too small.
Had some in a 40g for a while (not too long) and in that 3' space the largest couldn't even get up to speed before he was stopping. (and they do accelerate rapidly!) The smaller fish got at least a couple of 'wags' in before they had to slow down.

They are now in a 55g with a 4' run. Truthfully? That extra foot made a difference, but it is still a tight fit for this guy. He's about 7" TL. The smaller guys are fine, but growing. In fact, they are all still growing.

I guess I'm a 'wing-it' wonder...do the same with my angelfish spawns. When they start to 'look' crowded, I split them into another tank. Given observation and time, its not so hard to see.

The problem with people who keep active fish in small tanks, is that they never see the activity, so they assume everything is normal.
It's like keeping a sedentary older dog. The occasional sedate walk is all you get around to. When suddenly you get a puppy you realize just how lazy your old dog is! And how much more room it takes to live with a puppy...

[joitoy]

I always take the advice that I receive here, especially if the health of the fish are at stake.

Sometimes it can't be helped though.

Like if the advice is 'to rehome the fish' and its because your tank isn't big enough.. sometimes I would think the person doing the inquiry needs to contemplate this on their own personal terms.

You have a 75 or 100 gallon tank, you should rehome the fish.

If there is no one with a bigger tank ANYWHERE near you, your only option is to return them to the petstore.

Then they'll be resold again, and possibly into a SMALLER tank, I almost feel as if there is no possibly, there's a great chance some stupid teenager in a petco or petsmart will sell those 3-4 clowns to a 6 year old and his mother for their 30 gallon.


Sometimes it feels like your fish are damned if you do, damned if you don't and the best thing you could do in that instance IS keep them and try to strive towards getting a bigger tank asap instead of the rehoming.

[loachmom]

I think you've made a good point, joitoy.
I've sometimes wondered what I would do if for some reason I couldn't provide a larger tank for the clown loaches I already have. Well, I would never take them back to the pet store I bought them from. (I did once bring three very large fish to a store to be rehomed, and I've often wondered what was their fate.)
I might possibly contact another member of this forum to see if they would take them--possibly driving hundreds of miles to deliver them.
But to bring them back to the store (at least the stores in my area) would be pointless.

I guess this just reinforces that we should thoroughly research the fish we intend to buy.

[janger]

There's some good points being brought up, especially about taking fish back to stores to have them suffer even more. And yes, researching purchases is obviously a good thing. Sometimes you just get it wrong at the wrong time though, especially less experience people like myself.

As for my clowns, several people have emailed me and said that as long as I keep up the water quality etc, there should be no reason the 3 inch fish will become stunted at this stage. I tend to agree as they are showing no signs of stress. They don't hide ever, and are constantly active. Wouldn't they show stress if they were cramped?

I'll repeat again, mine are going to a better home in a few weeks. But I need the proof to show the LFS. My brother told me last night they tried selling a couple of clowns to his friend. He has a 2 foot tank.

[chefkeith]

janger- goto http://www.loaches.com/articles/information-posters and print out the poster and give that to your LFS.

The owner at my LFS has told me numerous times that a customer brought him in some huge clowns that were about 18" long and about 6" thick. I told him no way do they get that big, but he swears that's the truth. Even if he was exaggerating, they must of been very huge and about the biggest and oldest clowns ever kept.

[janger]

Thanks chefkeith. I should of remembered that poster. I doubt they'll take any notice, but I'll give it a go.

[Calypso mermaid]

I have what I consider to be a crowded tank. Part of this was ignorance and part of this is because we are moving soon and I know the fish are getting a much bigger tank when we move. I have a 30 gallon tank, with 5 clown loaches, 2 rainbow fish, 2 polka dot loaches and a gianormous pleco. My pleco was only 1/2" less than 6 months ago, he's like 6" now and comes out when you get his attention-like a dog, it's ridiculous.
No one seems stunted and all are growing like crazy. When I first stocked the tank, everyone was tiny and I didn't anticipate everyone growing so quickly and so I just do lots of water changes. It only takes like 5-15 minutes a day, no biggie. I probably overfeed to make sure everyone gets to eat, but then I just make sure to regularly vacuum the gravel and keep the filter clean.
I would say the danger of a tank that's too small is pollution and lack of resources, obviously when they get too big to comfortably swim around and have fun, it's no good, but really, the ideal conditions would be to leave them in the wild so they could actually live life to to fullest. Reality is, they live in captivity and we do the best, most humane husbandry we can.
Maybe it's not scientific, but in my opinion, the general level of care probably influences growth more than just the size of the tank. While there comes a point where the fish really do need more room and one should get a bigger tank, at the same time, the best approach would be to just never keep them in a tank at all, so what can you do? If they are fairly small at this point and growing steadily, chances are the fish are fine and you can just upgrade when you need to.

[Calypso mermaid]

[quote]Sometimes it can't be helped though.

Like if the advice is 'to rehome the fish' and its because your tank isn't big enough.. sometimes I would think the person doing the inquiry needs to contemplate this on their own personal terms.

You have a 75 or 100 gallon tank, you should rehome the fish.

If there is no one with a bigger tank ANYWHERE near you, your only option is to return them to the petstore.

Then they'll be resold again, and possibly into a SMALLER tank, I almost feel as if there is no possibly, there's a great chance some stupid teenager in a petco or petsmart will sell those 3-4 clowns to a 6 year old and his mother for their 30 gallon.


Sometimes it feels like your fish are damned if you do, damned if you don't and the best thing you could do in that instance IS keep them and try to strive towards getting a bigger tank asap instead of the rehoming.[quote][/quote]

WEll SAID!!!! I think many people on these boards are well meaning but forget; what percentage of people who have fish out there actually do everything they can for the wellfare of the animals they keep as pets? Very, very few. So if you have someone actually posting here on the board, chances are they are in the few percentage. Millions more loaches probably die horrible deaths in transport, waiting in pet stores or in small, dirty tanks than those that get even a half decent life in a "less than ideal" tank that may be currently too small. Telling people to give their loaches away or return them to the pet store probably only dooms them......how horrible to think about loaches returned that might have ended up being resold to more ignorant owners that quickly killed them. Stores like Petsmart and Petco, totally rely on impulse purchases, specifically targeting people that if they were educated, probably wouldn't purchase the majority of animals available. Don't fool yourself about the pet industry. If people really care about these creatures and worry about stunting, start from the bottom up and go after the pet industry. [/quote]

[chefkeith]

I agree that the pet industry is part to blame. Most people do care about their pets though. There is a huge learning curve in fish keeping and most newbies don't realize this until it's too late. Most newbies think you can buy a tank, then put water and fish in it, and everything will be OK. Another problem is that their just isn't enough accurate information at the point of purchase of the fish.
How many fish shops have a fish books or computers for their customers and employee's to use? None that I know of.