Help ID a loach..../Hillstream tank setup question

[NancyD]

Hi, just a quick question, what do you do about high temps in summer for the hillstreams? No central air & can't really justify room a.c. for fish. Just more aeration? No hillies yet but everyone's pics make it tempting...
Nancy

[mikev]

Jim, thank you very much for the answers -- this covers everything in a very clear way. The tank should progress greatly by the end of the day today.

I guess we'll have to wait to see what species you have. It will be interesting to get a positive ID.

We will, I'm most motivated on ID. I'm just hoping it is not all Vanmanenia....the ideal situation would have been to have half of the loaches of the species well familiar to you so I have some way of checking if they are doing well. I'll go recheck the fs in an hour (and possibly murder the store owner, if the powerhead is not in the tank as was promised yesterday.)

[Martin Thoene]

Hi, just a quick question, what do you do about high temps in summer for the hillstreams? No central air & can't really justify room a.c. for fish. Just more aeration? No hillies yet but everyone's pics make it tempting...
Nancy

Back in England the first ever River-Tank to my design got up to 90F one hot Summer in my west-facing lounge. I never had any problems with the fish and the nightime temperatures dropped to slightly less crazy levels.

Here in Toronto, I've had the tanks in the 80's even with the AC on without trouble. Part of the trouble is caused by heat-sink from the larger than "normal" pumps used to create the high currents necessary for these fish.

Last summer, I did a series of experiments checking input and output temps with powerheads and filters. I found that just going through an Aquaclear 802, the water gained a few tenths of a degree, but the same amount could be reduced in water flowing through a Hang On the Back filter. Possibly the thin layer of water flowing over the HOB exit weir gets air-cooled.

Many people in naturally hot countries that keep these fish use remote fans to give some evapourative cooling because of the air flow over the water surface.

Marine aquarists that run Reef-type tanks featuring corals have to very carefully watch their temperatures as corals have very little tolerance for higher than normal temps. The very bright lights and big pumps they use for water movement all conspire to heat the water. That's why many high-end systems use coolers.....but that's into big money.

I'm to some extent in a wait and see mode for this summer. I'm in a penthouse apartment with west-facing lounge, so it gets lots of afternoon sunshine. I just bought curtains to try and reduce even winter temperatures. Not unusual for me to have my balcony doors cracked around 1-2" even in sub-zero outside temps.
In the summer I can leave the doors open all day and the predominantly west wind should help cause a through-draft. I moved in in September, so never really got too much chance to try that out. If I do give in and get myself a window vent mount external AC to pump the cold stuff into the lounge, my landlord will charge me $70 a month for the priviledge

You'll find placing a fan near the tank will increase the evapouration of the tank markedly. Depends on your area's relative summertime humidity. Here in Toronto it's usually way up and sticky as hell. I get far greater evapouration during the Winter because the air is so dry here then. Remember that you can't just top it up, or you'll increase the hardness of the water.

Martin.

[mikev]

Ok, I got those things at home, and the tank is set up (even with bogwood+javafern on it and now cycling.). The greenhills are in the 10g for now, but with lots of air and a small powerhead they clearly like.

It is kind of funny to look at the tank: I've put the powerhead so that there is a good current in the left half of the tank, and almost no current in the right, so greenhills are on the left and rasboras are on the right (too tired to move them, and they should be ok). Surprisingly, plecos don't seem to mind the current.

The greenhills (using this name until we know the proper ID) apparently can stick to the glass -- don't understand how, so they are mostly on the glass where the current hits.



Better pictures a bit later....with the tank and acclimation activities I forgot to recharge the batteries!

They seem to be quite active (much more than at the store), do not hide, and behave a bit like acclimating kuhlis,,,and they are quite fast. Some of them just (3hrs after being put into the tank) started exploring the part of the tank without the current...so far so good.

Thanks for your help again.

[mikev]

OK, a few quick shots for now.



No, I did not rotate the picture, it is glued to the glass somehow. I _think_ it is a Vanmanenia..... The writing seems to be Tamil, maybe we can have it translated



This is the other kind. Considerably more skittish, I just realized. Also, has bigger barbels...hmmm...correction: has barbels. I cannot see any barbels at all on Vanmanenia...what kind of loach it is?



Together.

....

BTW, these things are REALLY active. They were nice and quiet at the store, here they are just jumping around, still mostly around the powerhead.

[Jim Powers]

Interesting...
I'm not suprised that these fish are more active now, increased oxygen and current flow will definately get them active. I'm also not suprised they are sticking to the glass. The "lizard-fish" type hillstreams can and will do that quite often.
In looking at these fish, I'm not quite sure what you have here. Vanmanenia (at least one of the species) have markings very similar to L. disparis. The head shape is different though. From the pics, I can't be sure they are not disparis, or one its many subspecies.
I still think the others might be crossostomas of some type, but am not sure of that either.
There are a couple of sites that have some pics of various Chinese hillstreams that I will try to find. That may be helpful.
Good luck! It sounds as if they are doing well.

[mikev]

I'm thinking Vanmanenia because of (1) Markings (2) Head shape -- Strong crocodile feeling to it and (3) Barbels -- very small or possibly none, I cannot see them on my fish.

There will be better pictures to solve this.

I still think the others might be crossostomas of some type, but am not sure of that either.

I hope they are not CAE's of some kind....I'm not venturing any guesses, I'm only certain that the two types are different species.

I'm not suprised that these fish are more active now, increased oxygen and current flow will definately get them active.

They are much less active now. Spread all over the tank (I guess they don't need the current *every moment*...but yesterday they were surely thirsty. Now, the behavior is more like schisturas I have: stay in one place, and quickly jump to another.--I suspect this is the normal way. A couple are on the plant leaves right now, seemingly cleaning the algae.

TBA, the effect of the current on the other fish was more of a surprise to me. Maybe they need it too.

I'm also not suprised they are sticking to the glass. The "lizard-fish" type hillstreams can and will do that quite often.

It is fascinating to see them next to plecos on the glass. While totally unrelated, they look nearly identical "from the bottom".

Good luck! It sounds as if they are doing well.

Thank you. If they do, it is largely due to your help.

[Martin Thoene]

Probably what's on Jim's mind is our friend Zhou Hang's excellent site:

http://photobucket.com/albums/v470/MrTr ... ?start=all

You'll probably find that you can ID the gobies as well. Lots of great photos, though some are a little dark. There are several Vanamenia species illustrated near the bottom of the page.

A real loach-nuts appetite whetter this site

Mike, you'll find that the Plecs will like the current. Many Loricarids come from reasonably fast-flowing waters. I've had Corydoras aneus spawn when put into my 6 foot tank with directional flow, and there's a page somewhere on the net where somebody spawned Farlowella accus using one of my River-Tank manifold designs.

I've heard of people trying to encourage Zebra plecs to spawn with plenty of current as well. Their shape is the way it is because of high water flow, but it seems that they do not have the same ultra-high oxygen requirements as hillstream loaches. Given plenty of flow though, they are very happy.

You'll probably find that the behaviour that you're now seeing is typical. It's pretty much similar to Homaloptera species.

Martin.

[Jim Powers]

Thanks Martin, that's the one. I knew I could count on you

Here is another one that is a bit harder to work through, but there are some good pics of various Liniparhomaloptera, Vanmanenia, and Crossostoma for you to choose from. To simplify checking the pics, the links with [FBd] and [LO] are to pics from fishbase and Loaches Online. Click on the others.
http://www66.tok2.com/home2/ichthy/aqua/tani.html

Here is an example of what you will find once you wade through this site.
http://www66.tok2.com/home2/ichthy/chin ... icauda.jpg

[mikev]

Martin,

Thanks for the link: I'll explore it. No need to ID gobies, I decided not to risk after Jim's warning.

What you said about plecos is really interesting ... until yesterday I believed that the Bristlenose is the ultimate case of a fish that needs still water and with the similarity in the morphology, my own observations, and your comments on other plecos (Zebra!!!), this seems quite unlikely.

I've been actually wondering since I saw the new tank running if it would make sense to take your design, cut down the current by perhaps half, and use it for, for example, yoyo's. Even without any other changes this may be better than an average tropical community tank.

One other thing (actually, there are more) that bothers me now is that I (and most other people who keep fish) may actually be making a bad error on current with respect to most other fish. Among the fish I keep now only the barbs seem to be a no-current species, and even then there may be species of barbs that would not mind it.

If this is actually true, I may have to admit that all my tanks are done incorrectly and start planning a really major reshuffle.

---

BTW, If my hillstreams last until the summer -- and I don't see why not now -- I'll have to deal with 90F and occassionally 100F.

[mikev]

Thanks for the links.

I'll look seriously later, but the situation now resembles identification of Schistura Sp. or Pangios. Most Vanmanenia species (on Martin's link) are possible with the exception of pingchowensis.

TBA I don't think that ID can be correctly done by pictures, without reading the literature.

[Martin Thoene]

I've been actually wondering since I saw the new tank running if it would make sense to take your design, cut down the current by perhaps half, and use it for, for example, yoyo's. Even without any other changes this may be better than an average tropical community tank.

Been there, done that

My 6 foot Clown tank:



2 fairly average flow powerheadson River-Tank manifold.



At left, inlets to an Aquaclear 500 HOB, and two Rena Filstar XP3's, one of which flows through......



......a dead Magnum 350 with the impeller removed. Now just a through-flow biological media container. Rena's exit via horizontal spraybars mounted near the powerheads, so flow is primarily in one direction.



All the fish seem to love it. 13 Clowns , 20 strong Tiger Barb shoal, 12 Danio kyathit shoal, and Corydoras aneus group of 13.

It's been set up like this since October.




Martin.

[NancyD]

Thanks for the higher temp info Martin. Nice to know I could keep them happy when the time comes . Much easier in NE than when we lived 300 miles south, always very humid, ick. Thanks too for confirming my memory of plecs being river fish, sucker mouth, sucker belly both adaptations for hanging on tight in the current.
Nancy

[mikev]

I've been actually wondering since I saw the new tank running if it would make sense to take your design, cut down the current by perhaps half, and use it for, for example, yoyo's. Even without any other changes this may be better than an average tropical community tank.

Been there, done that

Wonderful So I'm not on a wrong track.

(Note to remember: Tiger Barbs take current. Very likely, Striped Barbs too. My Odessa's, unf., is a clear no.)

I wonder if it is possible to (very roughly) classify the common species with respect to the current. This may be a valuable guideline for compatibility.... ?

Also, the way I see it is that the ultimate test of fish happiness is breeding. You and Jim proved that it is possible to create a happy environment for at least some hillstreams. It would be interesting to try to confirm this on other hillstream species. It would be much more interesting to try to confirm this on schisturas, kubotai, or striata. (Why these? -- it is easier to experiment with smaller species, they also mature faster.)
Of course, I'm not experimenting like this until I'm 100% sure that the new tank is successful, but this is something to think about down the road.

Your clown set up may actually work breeding-wise....would be very interesting if it does. How big are your clowns, any adults?

And it is really strange that one has to go through hillstreams to understand the relevance of the current....

[mikev]

A bit more on ID'ing (after looking through your pictures and on loaches here).

To make it clear, let me refer to species A and B.

Species A is nearly certainly Vanmanenia and the exact ID will not be possible without having high quality images of V.species. I think pictures of the tail may be particularly useful.

Species B I'm having a real trouble with. I have a couple of distinctive marks that may help in the exact ID later:
1. There is a red/brown triangle on top of the head.
2. There is light,"metallic" patch behind the dorsal fin -- similar thing occurs in some schisturas.

I hate to admit, but Species B is not very attractive....

Oh, and the difference between A and B is not just in barbels. Species A is mostly on top of the tank, attached to the glass/thermometer/powerhead. Species B is mostly on the ground and mostly away from the powerhead.

Among species B there is a baby, about 1in long,



which may be of help. When on the glass, he looks awfully like a gastro, so I looked at the LOL pages and found that one of the P.Cheni pictures,

http://www.loaches.com/species_images/p ... _cheni.jpg

is a very close match. The red border on the dorsal is present on mine too; in adults it becomes weak brown. (I hope this does not indicate a presence of Species C...)

More Species B pictures (adult/subadults):





the red/brown spot on the head is visible, the bright area behind the dorsal is hard to catch.