med question

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mousey
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med question

Post by mousey » Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:19 am

Have had a few fish lately die suddenly with internal stomach redness.
I think it was brought in by a gourami that did pass Q. My female gourami accepted the male for a few weeks but went on a rampage killing him and an Sae. Then I found another Sae dead on a leaf one morning. When I went to bed the night before all fish were swimming about and looked ok.
The dead fish all had the red internal patches.
I have turned in the gourami to the lfs and everyone is again peaceful and back in groups.
i live on edge worrying if someone else will get this internal issue.
Should I treat the whole tank with Maracin?
I have 3 N corica in there with a betta,black skirts,danio.
Water is changed Q 2 weeks 20% plus filter which holds another 1 gallon.
Ammonia,nitrites are 0 ,nitrates are 10 . Ph is 8, water is hard.

And just so I know --is something like Prazipro or flagyl compatible with loaches and other scaleless fish.( i am updating my notes)
Thanks.

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mikev
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Post by mikev » Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:57 am

PraziPro is fine with loaches (including hillstreams).

For internal parasites, it is also not a drug to use since levamisole does better job (Prazi is totally ineffective against nematodes whereas Levamisole works; both Prazi and Levamisole are effective against tapeworms).

hth

mousey
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Post by mousey » Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:59 pm

does Levamisole have any other name?
I have not seen it.
Is the flagyl ok with scaleless fish?
I have an otto and a few loaches.
What is a nematode? And what kind get in fish?
I have been feeding the fish white worms.Are they nematodes? I have had a number of fish deaths in the past month and have no idea what is going on. My water parameters are as stated below. Had another fish die today. It was fine this morning and had breakfast and was dead and eaten except for the head by 4 pm.
I have started the tank on erythromycin. It was suggested by the staff at Big Als that I also start flagyl but i read from someone last year that flagy is incompatible with all other medications so will have to hold off on that.
I need some help fast please.
This tank has been running for 4 years and theser are the first deaths i have had in that tank.

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mikev
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Post by mikev » Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:08 pm

Flagyl (== metronidazole) is yet again not the best drug against internal parasites.

Levamisole may be available under trade names like Big-L, levasol, etc. If you mention which country you are in, you'll probably get better info.

For US:
http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php?p=8908#8908

Nematodes: general overview:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nematode
In brief, if you manage to get a new fish with a single nematode inside into your tank, you may see most of your fish dead within 2-3 nematode livecycles (which depends on the species but is around 3-4 weeks for the most common nematodes). Generally, your bottom feeders will be the first to go.
White worms are not nematodes, and they are dead anyway. You usually get nematodes with the new fish. You previously said
I think it was brought in by a gourami that did pass Q.
but did not define "pass Q". A quarantine is useless with nematodes unless it is a month long (or if you treat for them).
It was fine this morning and had breakfast and was dead and eaten except for the head by 4 pm.
Typically, with nematodes a small fish takes very little time from the onset of symptoms to death. Obviously, the fish that ate the dead fish likely gets infected too.

Random deaths over a month would be consistent with nematodes.

Have you done autopsies? You may be able to see something there.

The record time I've seen was in a Nemacheilus that died within three hours of purchase (it looked quite healthy when I bought it too, ..see my platiceps thread on what happened if interested... it even has a photo of the unlucky thing.).

erythromycin aka Maracyn -- Useless against parasites of any kind. Also, I personally consider it a totally useless drug for any purpose. But this is me.

hth

mousey
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Post by mousey » Sat Sep 16, 2006 10:57 pm

Thanks. I live in canada near Toronto Ontario.
I will check the farm supply store near me and see if they have anyLevisole.
Also, I am wondering if the whole problem started with the first loach death. He was always skinny and never grew. He died about 4 weeks ago. The the first SAe then the new gourami, next the first danio, another Sae and then the other danio.
I think i am going to lose the betta too from that tank. I have her Q'd just now. She is not eating and her color is off.
I tried her with some antibiotic soaked food but she is having none of it.
Ican try the flagyl tomorrow until i can get to the stores on Monday.
I also have a female gourami that is in a differnet tank than all these deaths. She is showing stringy poo and a picky appetite.
I am not sure what she eats as the other fish knock her out of the way. I know she picks at algae.
I guess I will have to do longer Q than 2 weeks. I was mainly interested in ick and overt problems-- never thought about worms. hard lesson to learn.
What about jungle parasite stuff if i can't get the levasole.
OH and flagyl tabs do not dissolve in even warm water. I crushed one up and 4 hours later the sediment is still in the bottom. It is not likely to be absorbed very well ..... at this rate. and if the fish won't eat there is another problem.

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mikev
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Post by mikev » Sun Sep 17, 2006 12:44 am

You can try the link I gave you above, perhaps they will ship to Canada.
(Call them on Monday and ask.)
Maybe you can find a creative solution based on the proximity of Toronto to the US border.
Also, I am wondering if the whole problem started with the first loach death. He was always skinny and never grew. He died about 4 weeks ago.
This is not exactly how it works.
Skinny may mean a lot of things, usually tapeworm(s), but not nematodes. (Nematodes kill quickly enough that a fish does not have time to get skinny.)
More plausible is that you brought in the infection with gourami and the weakest loach succumbed first. If it is worms, he also got more of them than a gourami due to his feeding habits. SAE's are also bottom feeders, right? And Danios unf. tend to eat everything they see on the ground.

In any case you obviously have a process going in your tank, and most likely your other fish is in various stages of infection.

Now, one more word of warning: do not overdo on random drugs. Use the drugs only if you have legitimate reasons to think they may work. Otherwise you may end up uncycling your tank on top of the other problems.
(I'm not saying that you definitely have namatodes, even if it looks this way -- but before putting a drug in, find a justification for using it, something better than it may be effective against something....)

And if you have another death, autopsy is your friend. Arm yourself with a good magnifying glass, and look carefully. When you know the enemy, it is much easier to fight.
I guess I will have to do longer Q than 2 weeks. I was mainly interested in ick and overt problems-- never thought about worms. hard lesson to learn.
Ich is a minor problem if the fish is healthy otherwise; it is a flu-class disease. Nematodes are serious, plague-class. 2 weeks with a couple of Levamisole rounds is still not enough IME, but at least you do cover nematodes this way.

Good luck.

Append. Big OOPS. I almost missed the important part:
I also have a female gourami that is in a differnet tank than all these deaths. She is showing stringy poo and a picky appetite.
Nematodes tend to wipe out ALL your tanks. However, your other tanks should have a bit more time. "Stringy poo" is of course a symptom.

In other words: Unless you have taken extreme precautions (including separate syphons, nets, buckets, and washing hands between touching the tanks) AND your tanks are far away from each other, you must assume your other tanks infected too. Further, since nematodes will take lots of different hosts, including humans, make sure you wash your hands really well after you touch any tank.

mousey
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Post by mousey » Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:03 pm

Thanks. I do wash my hands and my equipment is washed between tanks.
I feed live white worms BTW. I wonder if they are a problem too. After all they are a nemetode of sorts. They only live in soil so it makes no sense that they would infect a fish.
All the fish in the female gouramis tank currently have healthy looking poop.
The gourami is in a container just now and I have been able to get some Jungle anti parasitic food. She is eating it quite enthusiastically unlike the black skirt tetras in the infected tank.
I will be finishing a course of EM that was recommended by Big Al's and as soon as that is finished I am planning to treat the tank with Jungle parasite eliminator fizz tabs.
I guess I will do both tanks since they shared fish. -- don't ask!
I have been reading extensively on THE KRIB and see that round worm etc is a real pain.
I was not able to get any Levamisole at my local farmers store. i live close to a rural area so may be able to track down a vet with some.However the Jungle fizz product contains Lev., Prazi, and flagyly and is for internal and external parasites. Any idea on how many times i should treat?
All i was told is untill there are no more symptoms from the Jungle rep. There are no worms hanging out of the fish! Fortunatley.
No I am not going to autopsy my fish. I do not have the stomach nor the heart for it. You must be a guy!

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mikev
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Post by mikev » Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:17 pm

White worms are not parasitic. Soil nematodes will not find it comfortable to be in fish intestines and will be digested very quickly. However, any live food may contain live parasites.
mousey wrote: I was not able to get any Levamisole at my local farmers store. i live close to a rural area so may be able to track down a vet with some.However the Jungle fizz product contains Lev., Prazi, and flagyly and is for internal and external parasites. Any idea on how many times i should treat?
As many as you like, it is not likely to hurt the fish or the biocycle, or the parasites either. Levamisole is not very effective when taken as food, there is very little of it in Jungle, and the other two components are simply useless against roundworms.

IMHO, stop wasting time and get the real thing.
All i was told is untill there are no more symptoms from the Jungle rep. There are no worms hanging out of the fish! Fortunatley.
This was quite stupid of them to say. With smaller nematodes, in >90% of the cases the only symptom is death.
(The manufacturer recommends one week, I think.)
No I am not going to autopsy my fish. I do not have the stomach nor the heart for it. You must be a guy!
Well, my handle makes this obvious.
I don't enjoy doing autopsies too much either, it is simply something that you owe to your other fish.

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Post by sully » Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:29 am

"Ich is a minor problem if the fish is healthy otherwise; it is a flu-class disease.

First time i have ever seen that type of description of ich. what does it mean? will it go away and simply run its course untreated?

Flu is a virus. Ich a deadly parasite that devastates gill membranes and creates open oozing wounds on fish negativey impacting the osmo regulatory process as the fluid and salt retention equation is seriously unbalanced (especially with juvenile and young adult specimens--especially problematic for scaleless fish. this is a loach site right?). It weakens and stresses fish opening up the window to opportunistic bacteria and fungus at the site of the supporating wounds. I guess i am confused. I always thought of flu as a relatively easy health issue for anyone other that the very young or old. Ich does not discriminate based on age.

left untreated in a tank it can be a source for many "mysterious" fish deaths over time. Or simply decimate a tank in a matter of days. Left unaddressed it creates a latent disease environment that threatens the life of every existing occupant and any naive fish introduced to the infected tank.

Maybe easily treated is a better description (at least usually). Or even Plague. I think all you need to do is look in the archives here to see many virulent, long lasting strains of the parasite that caused countless problems and fish deaths.

i don't have a lot of experience treating the disease--thankfully. Been at it 30+ years. I can count on a very few fingers when i had to deal with it. But never look at ich as a minor issue in a tank. Always treat it as the very serious and legitimate threat to well being and survival of your fish it truly is.

There are several remedies. I prefer the use of medications. others are firmly convinced of heat and salt regimes. Whatever method of treatment you choose--get to it immediately.

It is late tonight. So, i won't write a book. Here is a link that provides an accurate description of your problem. At the same time methods of eradication are discussed.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/BODY_FA006

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mikev
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Post by mikev » Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:02 pm

sully wrote:There are several remedies. I prefer the use of medications. others are firmly convinced of heat and salt regimes. Whatever method of treatment you choose--get to it immediately.
But she does not have ich.
You probably would have noticed if you read the entire thread, rather than picking on one metaphor.

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Post by sully » Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:34 pm

oh mike,
you cannot resist the chance can you. I read the entire thread. I took the most obvious issue with what you said to address. I told Martin that i would behave better on my next visit so i will.

Let's start with the other obvious issues.

I guess I will have to do longer Q than 2 weeks. I was mainly interested in ick and overt problems-- never thought about worms. hard lesson to learn.

the woman asked. I thought she deserved an honest answer. Obviously you thought the thread was about you. no. it is about a person that appears to a hobbyist with several years of relatively trouble free fishkeeping. yet, possesses a limited knowledge of what could be the potential causes of death in her tank.

Have had a few fish lately die suddenly with internal stomach redness.

No I am not going to autopsy my fish. I do not have the stomach nor the heart for it. You must be a guy!


Since it has become about you let's ask a few questions. How do we know it was internal redness. It is a redness visible from the outside not the inside. Is that really "internal redness".

20% of the water is changed every two weeks. While nitrates are only at 10 that is not really a water change level i would be personally comfortable with.

Let's start at the beginning since that is where the last paragraph took us. Water conditions and maint are two of the very first questions to ask. Usually it is followed by tank size, type and number of fish, and decor. Then movess into diet and behavior. then symptoms.

I wonder how big that tank is. I wonder about reasons behind the disease outbreak that may preclude the successful resolution of the health issues in spite of best efforts. is it 10 gallons 0r 225?

I think it was brought in by a gourami that did pass Q. My female gourami accepted the male for a few weeks but went on a rampage killing him and an Sae

To me that is not an importing of any kind of endo parasite. it is one fish killing others. wonder what kind of nasty pathogens get released when fish start dismembering one another.

I wonder why. How big was that tank again? What type of gourami was it? Could the agression been a result of inadequate territorial provisions? Is the provision of space still inadequate? Would that cause stress induced immune response compromise resulting in bacterial infections ?

I forget did we find out if there was any white around the red?

BTW, how deep is that substrate--does it receive regular gravel vaces. Could there be an anaerobic bacteria presence not taken into consideration. Or an organic load in the water column and substrate providing a great nutritional resource for bacteria and parasites. Water changes do more than lower nitrates. They also reduce bacterial, parasitic and viral loads. And, DOC loads.

It was fine this morning and had breakfast and was dead and eaten except for the head by 4 pm.,

So we think an otherwise healthy appearing fish suddenly succumbed to massive internal organ failure in the matter of a few hours? Eating well--then bang--dead with just a head left.interesting hypothosis. Could be true. Could very well be wrong. So what was the fish that died? what other fish was it living with--in how big a space? how many of those other fish are there in that tank again? oh a few loaches and an oto--definitive. wait the black skirt tetras are in there? or is that in another tank? one of the gouramis came back in an isolation container. just what fish were were when this thread startted...how about respiration--what was gill action like?

•So as i reread and reread this thread i wonder just what fish were the dead ones with internal redspots. An SAE and a gourami got killed by a gourami on a rampage. We have another dead fish that was eaten, except for the head, what were the fish that died with internal redspots that were visible externally--could the redness been a natural organ coloration? what species of fish and how many have died with this redness. Was the stomach comment meaning on the underside of the fish? was it on the sides of the fish in front of the caudal peduncle? Were the red patches round? were they streaky lines?

How big is that tank again? Could the tank have been overpopulated with incompatible species or sex ratios. Maybe a conspecific issue? Don't know--seems the questions were not asked. Does mousey know that several of the questions i asked could lead to a totally different diagnosis than nematodes. Or maybe it is nematodes--impossible to tell.

Stringy poop. who among us has not seen stringy poop in a fish free of endo parasites? Was the anus red? how about the vent? were there any other behavioral issues or eating habits questioned prior to jumping into nematodes?

does a swimbladder issue play any role in digestive impariment in a gourami? does diet influence feces? wonder what other than white worms the fish have been fed? Wonder if redness was a swim bladder redness--not really the stomach--guess knowing what mousey thinks is the stomach might help.

Should I treat the whole tank with Maracin?

•And just so I know --is something like Prazipro or flagyl compatible with loaches and other scaleless fish.( i am updating my notes)


I guess my problem with this thread is the poor girl gained some knowledge--sounds like fish kept dying. did not really offer any practical solutions to any problem other than the one you wanted to talk about.

Mike, my problem was not in the lack of reading--my problem is with what i read and what was not addressed. I took a quick stab, late last night at an obviously inappropriate characterization of ich as a minor problem. Are you happy know that you understand why i took an easy route late at night.

The commet last night was for mousey--I don't want her to be misinformed. todays are for her as well. hopefully she can answer the basic questions and get the thread back on track for trying to come up with a reasonable examination of fishkeeping practices and the potential problems that may be causing her mysterious death syndrome. mike you can be right--good on ya mate if you are. but, the diagnostic process was certainly circumvented. BTW, fecal samples, slides and a microscope will reveal nematodes in many many cases--eggs gotta come out somehow. As to post motrtems--been there done em--will do some more i am sure. but, other techniques can also be utilized to diagnose health problems without waiting for death.

Skin/scale and fin samples? won't go to gill samples yet.

Mousey, is there a local fish club in the Toronto area that might have members that can help you out in this regard? I would check. that is how i learned to do them.

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mikev
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Post by mikev » Tue Sep 19, 2006 3:24 pm

sully wrote:oh mike,
you cannot resist the chance can you. I read the entire thread. I took the most obvious issue with what you said to address.
I was trying to be of help to mousey on this thread and to you on your Levamisole query.
I told Martin that i would behave better on my next visit so i will.
I think this is an excellent idea and I can only praise you for your admission that your behavior this visit could have been better.

I'm sorry, but I do not have time for the rest of your post. I hope it is of some use to someone. As you have said yourself, it is not about me or you, but about being helpful to the poster.

Undoubtly, if you are willing to run around the threads looking for arguments, we will talk again.

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Post by sully » Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:21 pm

oh mike,
you still cannot resist--lol.

my misbehavior was the manner utilized to call out what i perceived as boorish, arrogance in the levamisole thread. Certainly nothing with this thread. Correcting misinformation is not bad behavior. not even rude.

Why is it even interesting.....so profound....roflmao.

i guess i should have enjoyed your private musings. just can't find the humor, or even reason behind them. I guess i am used to treating others inquiries with respect so it is difficult for me to fathom the basic disrespect evidenced by your comments.

As i said--it is about help. hopefully you can provide that in the future. It usually comes in the form of accurate information and discussion. not misleading opinion offered in this thread. or, the effortless, glib form of response i may have perceived in another thread.

Don't read the post. if you do you might learn the basics involved with making an attempt, however inadequate, at helping someone solve a fish health issue. I would not want you to trouble yourself with that kind of understanding.

I just don't get your attitude dude. trying to take the high road at this point is probably the best option available to you. innuendo and questioning others worth , behavior, thoughts, or integrity in order to elevate yourself seems to be the favorite approach.

i went 5 years without running into you at LOL. With luck i can do it again.

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mikev
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Post by mikev » Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:46 pm

oh sully,
sully wrote: or, the effortless, glib form of response i may have perceived in another thread.
I'm truly uninterested in what you may have perceived or not, especially that you are not sure about it yourself :wink: . If you have a problem with perception as well as with the behavior, please don't unload it on me.

On the other thread, I've made an attempt to help you and point you in the right direction. Be assured that I will not spend my time helping you. I do hope this was the last contact between us. Please ignore my posts and I shall ignore yours.

mousey
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help need extra fast!!

Post by mousey » Wed Sep 20, 2006 3:22 pm

Guys I did not mean to start a war.
I am currently as distressed as my fish !
perhaps I should explain that I am having a problem in a planted 20 gallon tank. I also have a 15 gallon tank that as far as I know ,is not having any health issues.
In my 20 I HAD 4 SAe's 4 years old. 4 N Corica, 5 mature black skirt tetras, 3 guppies, 1, 3 year old blue gourami( the boss) and 1 female betta.
All fish have been tank mates since little except the corica and betta. Betta has been in tank for 6 months and coricas since Feb.
1 corica failed to grow and died just befor all this stuff started. I had him out of the tank before he died.
The gourami became nasty for some reason and 1 morning I found my one Sae stuck partway in the loaches tube quite dead.
Both sides apeared abraded and red but on the sides of the fish- not the belly and not inside the tissues.
( I do know up from downand surface abrasion from dead bleeding)
Everyone else in the tank was as usual.
Now at the same time I had purchased a pair of gold gouramis( the yellow version of blue ) for the 15 gallon tank.
The male beat the female up badly the first night we had them in the 15 gal.
So Since i was short 2 fish in the 20 gallon, i moved him over there. The female seemed to accept him and all went well for the next couple of weeks. I did notice he had stringy poo on occasion, but otherwise acted like I would expect a fish to act when doing well.
Then one morning I found him hanging onto life by a thread . He had 2 large red patches on his under body. But it looked to be internal redness.No redness around the vent either! I removed him to a holding jar and he died a couple of hours later.
The gourami in the meantime was chasing everything in site, especially the Sae's. I took her to the lfs as even the blackskirts were in hiding when she came by.
And yes i know that maybe 20 gal is too small for her but she had always been ok with the others before and I was very fond of her.
I decided to get some "hardy fish" as i was not aware there was a disease process going on.
Bought 3 pearl danios-- I chose my own fish as i am picky and one died the next day. I found his body before it had been picked.
Next day I found my biggest SAE dead on a leaf. He had red patches on his/her stomach and WAS red around the vent.
Gourami was gone so I know she did not attack him.Store had replaced the danio that died and next day another danio died also. However I was not able to get the body and only found a head and 1 fin in the water. MY betta was very bloated and color was poor. She is currently in Q.

I took my self off to BiG Als and was told to treat with Erythromycin and livebearer parasite meds. Since I do have loaches I could not use the livebeares stuff(it said so on the bottle)
So .
My tank maintenance is as follows every 2nd wednesday i do a 20 % water change-- i do at least 4 gallons and when I do the fluval I do 5 gallons. i do vacuum my gravel %100. I check water and ammonia and nitrites are always at 0. my nitrates run at 10-15 i figure. its hard to tellon those kits.
The tank contains about 7 jungle vals, 2 anubias and 2 large java ferns.they have been in tank 4 years. Temp is 74 to accomodate the loaches who prefer cooler water. gravel is approx1-1 1/2 inches thick.
I did the course of antibiotics and at the same time I fed them Jungle antiparasitic food.
During this time i have had no further deaths.
Last night i did the last 25% WATER CHANGE And this morning at 11am i added carbon to the filter. i put them back on the regular food as the parasite food is to be given 3 days weekly x 4 weeks.now is the horrifying part>
AN HOUR AFTER I ADDED THE CARBON THEY ALL SEEMED IN DISTRESS. THE GUPPIES WERE STANDING ON THEIR HEADS AND THE SAE'S ON THEIR TAILS. THE DANIOS WERE AT THE SURFACE BREATHING HEAVILY.THE LOACHES WERE ON THE BOTTOM WHERE THEY STAY BREATHING HEAVILY.
THE ONLY THING ODD WAS I WASHED THE CARBON IN TAP WATER.
I immediately phoned Big Als for help. they suggest that small amount of chloramine should not have done anything. and had no ideas.
SO I added some Prime to the water and added extra oxygen.
I am currently in a lather as NOW WHAT. I have tested the water and there is no spike of anything.
I hope this gives you all enough info to really help.
I am stuck and no-one in town seems to have any idea. i can't keep adding more meds to the water without some idea of what to treat.

Oh And I can't get levasol here. have phoned vets etc and it is not allowed in the farmers stores either.( Gov't ban)
I am using marineland food pellets. I have had that container open for about 6 months.
Would it go off?
HELP needed!!

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