First dose is for the entire water in the tank.
Are the follow up dosings also for the entire water in the tank? Or do you only dose the water that you changed?
Ich dose question (the follow up doses)
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Holdstrong
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BotiaMaximus
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Only for the amount of water replaced. Mix it into a cup of water from your tank first, then drizzle slowly into your tank to avoid creating a high concentration green cloud as well.
Follow the instructions in the Ich FAQ and your guys should do fine. It was put together compiled from the experience of some very well qualified fishkeepers.
Best of luck!
Follow the instructions in the Ich FAQ and your guys should do fine. It was put together compiled from the experience of some very well qualified fishkeepers.
Best of luck!
"Long May You Loach"
Depends on the medication you are using.
Some medicines are deactivated in the tank, and every time you dose, you dose for the full volume of the tank, no matter if you did or did not do a water change.
Other medicines are longer lasting and the next dose is simply to replace the amount removed by the water change. Salt is like this.
High organic matter in the tank will deactivate many medicines. Water changes that emphasize gravel vacs will remove Ich organisms and remove this excess of decomposing material in the gravel.
High light, Ultra Violet sterilizers and similar things can deactivate some meds. (If the label says to turn off the tank light, also do not use UV)
Amquel and Amquel Plus dechlorintar is labeled 'Do not use with dye-based medicine' Read the label on your dechlor to be sure it is safe with whatever medicine you are using.
Activated carbon removes many medicines, and needs to be removed from the filter before starting treatment. I would also remove other chemical filter media such as Purigen and Zeolite, and any other chemical media. Either they may remove the medicine, or the medicine or the inert carrier may get trapped in a way that makes these materials not regenerate.
Some medicines are deactivated in the tank, and every time you dose, you dose for the full volume of the tank, no matter if you did or did not do a water change.
Other medicines are longer lasting and the next dose is simply to replace the amount removed by the water change. Salt is like this.
High organic matter in the tank will deactivate many medicines. Water changes that emphasize gravel vacs will remove Ich organisms and remove this excess of decomposing material in the gravel.
High light, Ultra Violet sterilizers and similar things can deactivate some meds. (If the label says to turn off the tank light, also do not use UV)
Amquel and Amquel Plus dechlorintar is labeled 'Do not use with dye-based medicine' Read the label on your dechlor to be sure it is safe with whatever medicine you are using.
Activated carbon removes many medicines, and needs to be removed from the filter before starting treatment. I would also remove other chemical filter media such as Purigen and Zeolite, and any other chemical media. Either they may remove the medicine, or the medicine or the inert carrier may get trapped in a way that makes these materials not regenerate.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.
Happy fish keeping!
Happy fish keeping!
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Holdstrong
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Yeah, sorry... I should have provided more initial info.
I am dosing this particular tank with Rid Ich. This is a tank I have been obsessing over since witnessing flashing several weeks back. I have just now started to see white spots - I am not even 100% sure they are ich, but given the flashing that has been worrying me I decided not to take a chance.
It is a 75 gallon tank with clowns. I dosed at about 75% the recommended value (the sticky on top of this forum mentioned some loach keepers do half, so I split the difference).
It is a planted tank. Temp was raised to 84-86ish over the course of a day. I use Prime during water changes. It has 2 eheim ecco cannister filters and 1 whisperlight HOB, all with carbon removed.
I do not see anything on the label of rid ich that mentiones it deactivates. Any tips on how I should handle the second dose for this specific med?
I am dosing this particular tank with Rid Ich. This is a tank I have been obsessing over since witnessing flashing several weeks back. I have just now started to see white spots - I am not even 100% sure they are ich, but given the flashing that has been worrying me I decided not to take a chance.
It is a 75 gallon tank with clowns. I dosed at about 75% the recommended value (the sticky on top of this forum mentioned some loach keepers do half, so I split the difference).
It is a planted tank. Temp was raised to 84-86ish over the course of a day. I use Prime during water changes. It has 2 eheim ecco cannister filters and 1 whisperlight HOB, all with carbon removed.
I do not see anything on the label of rid ich that mentiones it deactivates. Any tips on how I should handle the second dose for this specific med?
Use the 75% dose every time, based on the full volume of the tank, whether you did or did not do a water change.
Here are some excerpts from the bottle of Rid Ich I have. It is so old there may have been changes. If your label reads differently, follow the directions on your bottle.
1 teaspoon (5 ml) per 10 gallons.
25% water change before each treatment is helpful.
Remove Activated Carbon from filter.
Standard treatment is once every 24 hours.
Repeat full dose as needed.
Do not increase of decrease the dosage.
For stubborn cases shorten the time between treatments to once every 12 hours.
More notes that other Loach keepers have found useful:
Water changes that emphasize gravel vacs help to remove many of the Ich organisms that have fallen to the floor of the tank to reproduce.
Loaches are among the 'sensitive' fish mentioned on the label. There are variations of the standard treatment that may make it easier for Loaches to tolerate this mediicne:
Total dose per day might be as low as 50% of the standard dose, and dose half of this in the AM, half in the PM. Thus, you might use 1/4 teaspoon per 10 gallons in the AM, then 1/4 teaspoon per 10 gallons in the PM. Do the gravel vac/water changes right before one of these dosings.
Here are some excerpts from the bottle of Rid Ich I have. It is so old there may have been changes. If your label reads differently, follow the directions on your bottle.
1 teaspoon (5 ml) per 10 gallons.
25% water change before each treatment is helpful.
Remove Activated Carbon from filter.
Standard treatment is once every 24 hours.
Repeat full dose as needed.
Do not increase of decrease the dosage.
For stubborn cases shorten the time between treatments to once every 12 hours.
More notes that other Loach keepers have found useful:
Water changes that emphasize gravel vacs help to remove many of the Ich organisms that have fallen to the floor of the tank to reproduce.
Loaches are among the 'sensitive' fish mentioned on the label. There are variations of the standard treatment that may make it easier for Loaches to tolerate this mediicne:
Total dose per day might be as low as 50% of the standard dose, and dose half of this in the AM, half in the PM. Thus, you might use 1/4 teaspoon per 10 gallons in the AM, then 1/4 teaspoon per 10 gallons in the PM. Do the gravel vac/water changes right before one of these dosings.
Last edited by Diana on Tue May 26, 2009 1:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.
Happy fish keeping!
Happy fish keeping!
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Holdstrong
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My confusion was with the sticky which suggests waiting a few days in between treatments. But I guess that was for a different type of medicine?
At any rate, I'm on day 6 of treatment... I missed one day as I was away, so that is 5 doses and 5 25% changes in 6 days. I have not seen much in the way of improvement and have actually seen an increase in ich spots on at least one loach.
Activity levels and eating are still fine.
How long is it safe to continue daily dosing like this? I imagine this is safer than letting the ich potentially take over...
At any rate, I'm on day 6 of treatment... I missed one day as I was away, so that is 5 doses and 5 25% changes in 6 days. I have not seen much in the way of improvement and have actually seen an increase in ich spots on at least one loach.
Activity levels and eating are still fine.
How long is it safe to continue daily dosing like this? I imagine this is safer than letting the ich potentially take over...
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BotiaMaximus
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That seems unusual that you haven't seen improvement. Sounds like you are doing it correctly.
Any chance you have any other media in your filters that might be removing the treatment such as: Purigen, Chemi-Pure, Nitra-Zorb etc...
Are you keeping the lights off?
How long is it taking for the water to lose the green color after you treat it?
Any chance you have any other media in your filters that might be removing the treatment such as: Purigen, Chemi-Pure, Nitra-Zorb etc...
Are you keeping the lights off?
How long is it taking for the water to lose the green color after you treat it?
"Long May You Loach"
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Holdstrong
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The filters are eheim ecco's... I double checked this morning that the carbon was out. I'm using the standard eheim ecco substrate in them. I don't know exactly what it is called, but it is the stuff that comes with the filter.
This medicine is blue in appearance, and my wife always calls me color blind... so take that into account when I say this... but the color doesnt seem to really stick around all that long in the tank. I dosed a few hours ago and just went and looked at the tank and if there is a blue or green tint to it, it must be pretty faint.
This medicine is blue in appearance, and my wife always calls me color blind... so take that into account when I say this... but the color doesnt seem to really stick around all that long in the tank. I dosed a few hours ago and just went and looked at the tank and if there is a blue or green tint to it, it must be pretty faint.
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BotiaMaximus
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I tried doing a couple of searches to see if this was an issue and couldn't find anything definitive. Eheim doesn't say on their website anything of that nature. Do you have any packaging of the ehfisubstrat that has directions that might say something about this?
I use Seachem Matrix in my canister filter and they don't mention anything about it needing to be removed during medicating.
They are similar products - both biological housing media.
I imagine that they might be capable of absorbing the medication perhaps, or a portion of it.
I would e-mail them and see if you can get an answer from them direct.
I use Seachem Matrix in my canister filter and they don't mention anything about it needing to be removed during medicating.
They are similar products - both biological housing media.
I imagine that they might be capable of absorbing the medication perhaps, or a portion of it.
I would e-mail them and see if you can get an answer from them direct.
"Long May You Loach"
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Holdstrong
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The only other thing I could imagine it being is the Prime.
Anyway, I got a new bottle of meds yesterday and upped the dose to 90% (I was doing 75% or so). All of the fish appear perfectly fine when it goes in, and afterward. I've noticed no change in activity or feeding in any of the fish... and this is day 7 at 85 degrees and 6 days of 25% water changes plus ich medicine.
Anyway, I got a new bottle of meds yesterday and upped the dose to 90% (I was doing 75% or so). All of the fish appear perfectly fine when it goes in, and afterward. I've noticed no change in activity or feeding in any of the fish... and this is day 7 at 85 degrees and 6 days of 25% water changes plus ich medicine.
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BotiaMaximus
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Prime - according to seachem shouldn't have any affect on the Rid-Ich. It is Amquel+ that is the one not to use from what Diana had mentioned.
I checked with a friend who has used Rid-Ich and 1st off it is blue-ish (I assumed green since it was a malachite green/formalin product) so you aren't color blind.
He keeps Cichlids and isn't very familiar with loaches, but recently had an outbreak from some new fish and successfully treated it with the Rid-Ich. He also has an Eheim canister, but uses the substrat -pro which I think is the same, just round shaped and more expensive.
He said the eheim substrat might soak up some of the med, especially if it has been in use for a while, just due to how porous it is. Not intended to do that, just does somewhat anyhow. His was "stained" after the treatment. Shouldn't make the treatment not work however, and it is normal for your tank to go clear fairly soon after treating - about an hour. His recommendation was if you have a powerhead or airstones that will keep some circulation going to turn off your canisters for twenty minutes when you first treat, just to give it some time in the tank untouched and then turn your canisters back on. Not to go any longer because you don't want to start killing your bacteria in the canisters from lack of oxygen.
My only other suggestion would be to add 1 more degree to the water temp. My friend set his tank to 88F, but the cichlids can take it. I think from what I've read most Botine Loaches can handle 86F - chefkeith's page says he took his clowns to 88F and they did fine. I don't think I'd go that far.
I think the difference between 85 and 86 could be the magic number though on stopping reproduction from temperature alone. (from the article linked on chefkeith's homepage)
Hope that is helpful - keep us posted on the progress.
Keith
I checked with a friend who has used Rid-Ich and 1st off it is blue-ish (I assumed green since it was a malachite green/formalin product) so you aren't color blind.
He keeps Cichlids and isn't very familiar with loaches, but recently had an outbreak from some new fish and successfully treated it with the Rid-Ich. He also has an Eheim canister, but uses the substrat -pro which I think is the same, just round shaped and more expensive.
He said the eheim substrat might soak up some of the med, especially if it has been in use for a while, just due to how porous it is. Not intended to do that, just does somewhat anyhow. His was "stained" after the treatment. Shouldn't make the treatment not work however, and it is normal for your tank to go clear fairly soon after treating - about an hour. His recommendation was if you have a powerhead or airstones that will keep some circulation going to turn off your canisters for twenty minutes when you first treat, just to give it some time in the tank untouched and then turn your canisters back on. Not to go any longer because you don't want to start killing your bacteria in the canisters from lack of oxygen.
My only other suggestion would be to add 1 more degree to the water temp. My friend set his tank to 88F, but the cichlids can take it. I think from what I've read most Botine Loaches can handle 86F - chefkeith's page says he took his clowns to 88F and they did fine. I don't think I'd go that far.
I think the difference between 85 and 86 could be the magic number though on stopping reproduction from temperature alone. (from the article linked on chefkeith's homepage)Hope that is helpful - keep us posted on the progress.
Keith
"Long May You Loach"
It is normal to see MORE Ich on the fish in the first few days of treatment.
Ich lands on the fish, but is too small to be seen. It takes a day or two to reach the point that you see a white spot on the fish.
The white spots that keep showing up during the first few days of medication are the Ich organisms that got onto your fish in the last day or so before you medicated the tank.
If there are STILL new Ich organisms showing up after 6 days then there is something going wrong with the treatment. The medicine is not being maintained at therapeutic levels in the tank, and the Ich theronts are still surviving to find a host. The skipped day may be part of this.
I would start the calendar back at the beginning after skipping a day with this medicine. You did not dose on day 5, so re-number day 6 as day 1. Expect more Ich to show up for a few days after that skipped day.
Ich can continue to reproduce in the tank whenever there is not enough medicine to kill it. You will need to keep medicating, and gravel vacuuming for something close to 2 weeks to be sure the Ich organisms are all dead. Keep medicating for at least 3 days beyond the day you saw the last spot on any of the fish.
Ich lands on the fish, but is too small to be seen. It takes a day or two to reach the point that you see a white spot on the fish.
The white spots that keep showing up during the first few days of medication are the Ich organisms that got onto your fish in the last day or so before you medicated the tank.
If there are STILL new Ich organisms showing up after 6 days then there is something going wrong with the treatment. The medicine is not being maintained at therapeutic levels in the tank, and the Ich theronts are still surviving to find a host. The skipped day may be part of this.
I would start the calendar back at the beginning after skipping a day with this medicine. You did not dose on day 5, so re-number day 6 as day 1. Expect more Ich to show up for a few days after that skipped day.
Ich can continue to reproduce in the tank whenever there is not enough medicine to kill it. You will need to keep medicating, and gravel vacuuming for something close to 2 weeks to be sure the Ich organisms are all dead. Keep medicating for at least 3 days beyond the day you saw the last spot on any of the fish.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.
Happy fish keeping!
Happy fish keeping!
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Holdstrong
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Thanks for the continued help.
Since last posting I have not seen any additional spots. In fact I've seen some progress. As best as I can tell, I now have 1 loach with 2 visible salt speck-like spots. These two spots have been around since about the beginning of treatment.
How long typically do these spots last (with or without treatment)? I always wonder if I'm seeing what I think I'm seeing. Wouldn't put it past me to treat the tank for ich when I'm seeing water spots on the glass.
Since last posting I have not seen any additional spots. In fact I've seen some progress. As best as I can tell, I now have 1 loach with 2 visible salt speck-like spots. These two spots have been around since about the beginning of treatment.
How long typically do these spots last (with or without treatment)? I always wonder if I'm seeing what I think I'm seeing. Wouldn't put it past me to treat the tank for ich when I'm seeing water spots on the glass.
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Holdstrong
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Hmmmm, well I'm starting to get nervous.
I am still not seeing an Ich outbreak. I see one or two spots on the same loach that I have seen for at least a week now. It looks like a grain of salt on his side. A tiny little round raised white spot.
I'm not seeing any "Ich" signs on any other fish.
However, last night I noticed one of the Cardinals was struggling. He was "twitching". Upon further examination I noticed he had a white blotchy spot on his side. Not like ich. More like a... hell, I'm not even sure how to describe it... like a tumor or a fungus.
I pulled him and the 4 other cardinals from the tank immediately and tossed them into quarantine. Where he died a few hours later.
The activity level of the clowns is down right now. But after 2 weeks + of high temps and meds this doesnt surprise me.
What is freaking me out is that I *think* I saw some "strings" hanging from the clowns fins this morning. Had to run to work so I wasn't able to follow up.
But, this is like a really bad deja vu for me right now. I lost an entire tank in gruesome fashion about 4 years ago. And the order of events went like this: Cardinals with white spots get twitchy and die, Loaches get an unidentified "stringyness" to their fins (almost like hair), entire tank blows up.
At the time I think we attributed it to Flex.
I'm afraid I'm seeing the early stages of this happening again, and I am feeling powerless to stop it.
Should I continue to dose with this Rid-Ich until that last stubborn salt speck is gone? Should I try a new med? Stop treating all together?
Phew, this can be exhausting.
I am still not seeing an Ich outbreak. I see one or two spots on the same loach that I have seen for at least a week now. It looks like a grain of salt on his side. A tiny little round raised white spot.
I'm not seeing any "Ich" signs on any other fish.
However, last night I noticed one of the Cardinals was struggling. He was "twitching". Upon further examination I noticed he had a white blotchy spot on his side. Not like ich. More like a... hell, I'm not even sure how to describe it... like a tumor or a fungus.
I pulled him and the 4 other cardinals from the tank immediately and tossed them into quarantine. Where he died a few hours later.
The activity level of the clowns is down right now. But after 2 weeks + of high temps and meds this doesnt surprise me.
What is freaking me out is that I *think* I saw some "strings" hanging from the clowns fins this morning. Had to run to work so I wasn't able to follow up.
But, this is like a really bad deja vu for me right now. I lost an entire tank in gruesome fashion about 4 years ago. And the order of events went like this: Cardinals with white spots get twitchy and die, Loaches get an unidentified "stringyness" to their fins (almost like hair), entire tank blows up.
At the time I think we attributed it to Flex.
I'm afraid I'm seeing the early stages of this happening again, and I am feeling powerless to stop it.
Should I continue to dose with this Rid-Ich until that last stubborn salt speck is gone? Should I try a new med? Stop treating all together?
Phew, this can be exhausting.
Last edited by Holdstrong on Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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