clowns

mick · Post by **mick** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:57 am

hi ,,im new to this forum ,,and would like some advice,,,my clowns have started behaving really strange ,they have been chasing each other all over the tank ,(been doing it for about two weeks now ) and just recently they have started circling each other ,and now started locking lips ,,one of them seems to have a cut under one eye ,,,is this normal? or is there something wrong ?? HELP ,im relly getting concerned ,,by the way ,,they are about 4--5 inches long and kept in a good size community tank

Emma Turner · Post by **Emma Turner** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:33 am

Hi mick, welcome to Loaches Online.

It sounds to me as though your loaches are battling for dominance. Could you tell us more about your set up, size of tank, number of clowns etc.

Emma

mick · Post by **mick** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:41 am

hi emma ,thanks for ur reply ,i have to be honest ,,i dont know that much about clown loach ,,but after reading the forum this morning i may be making a few changes ,,,,i have a 3 ft tank ,,soon to be changed for a 4ft i only have two at the moment ,,but will be adding a few more asap ,,they are both the same size and not sure what sex they are ,,they are kept with a couple of plecs ,a red tail black shark,,3 skunk botias and some livebearers (fresh food for the bigguns) dont know if its PC but it helps their diet,,oh and they are called ,sponge bob ,,and squidward,,my 8 year old names all my fish lolnice filtration system and no real plants (,plastic im afraid) they kept tearing the real stuff uplots of hiding places water quality is fine ,,and partial change about 1 -2 weeks ,is it really better to have lots together thanks for your input ,,looking forward to hearing more ,,,,mick

Emma Turner · Post by **Emma Turner** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:35 pm

Hi Mick,

Unfortunately, the vast majority of shops tend to sell clowns for tanks that are far too small and do not advise customers that these are the giants of the loach family. At our shop, we won't sell juveniles for tanks under 4ft long and always advise that they will need a larger tank (6ft x 2ft x 2ft minimum) as they grow. The reason your clowns are fighting is because there is only 2 of them and they are of similar size. Each is fighting to be the Alpha (boss) loach. A larger group will help to spread any arguments and is more natural for these highly social creatures.

These articles may give you some ideas:

http://www.loaches.com/species-index/cl ... cracanthus

http://www.loaches.com/articles/an-intr ... ping-botia

http://www.loaches.com/articles/clown-l ... variations

http://www.loaches.com/articles/water-m ... h-aquarium

Emma

P.S. Keep an eye on those skunk loaches (Yasuhikotakia morleti) as they are a highly aggressive species and really should not be kept with the more docile clowns. http://www.loaches.com/species-index/ya ... ia-morleti

mick · Post by **mick** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:13 pm

thanks for ur help ,,it has helped a lot ,,did u say u had a shop ,,if so do u u have a website ?/,and could you tell mewhere you are ,,im only in borehamwood so id like to come visit regards mick

Emma Turner · Post by **Emma Turner** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:13 pm

Glad to be of help.

The shop is called Maidenhead Aquatics @ Peterborough and is situated just north of Peterborough in a place called Crowland. My other half part owns the shop, and I am the livestock buyer. Here's an article on the shop that Martin Thoene put together after his visit from Canada in 2006

http://www.loaches.com/articles/is-this ... -the-world Here is our website page (the website is in the process of being upgraded)

http://www.fishkeeper.co.uk/store_detai ... storeid=33 and our stock list can be viewed on the Tropical Fish Finder website

http://www.tropicalfishfinder.co.uk/sho ... asp?id=107 (go right to the bottom of the page to search for tropical stock). Quite a few of us regular LOL members meet up at the shop every now and again. We are hoping to organise the next meeting for sometime in the new year, you'd be more than welcome.

Emma

mick · Post by **mick** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:43 am

that would be nice ,,ill keep in touch thnx mick

Martin Thoene · Post by **Martin Thoene** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:28 am

Mick, welcome to Loaches Online. If you're in Borehamwood you're ideally placed to hit the bottom of the A1 and head North to Peterborough. Crowland is easy to get to around the ring-road.

You've got a Maidenhead Aquatics at Daws Lane, Mill Hill but you won't find the same stock as Emma keeps in Crowland. Make the trip, you will be blown away by the shop and the hospitality. Do it when there's a LOL get-together there and you can talk Loaches all day long

If you go back into your Profile you might please want to add your location so it shows up in your messages side-bar. It's real useful to others to know your approximate location when answering certain Q's.

Martin.

mick · Post by **mick** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 4:19 pm

hi all sorry to be a pain ,,but one of my clowns is behaving really odd ,,he appears to be getting scaley an getting brown blotches on his flanks ,,he is also laying on top of the filter on his side half way out of the water ,,,ive topped up the tank so he is covered ,but he still wont come down ,,i have left all the lighting off ,and he doesnt appear to be fighting with the other clown,the second clown is right beside him ,and doesnt seem to want to leave him heeeeelllppp ive checked water ,,all is ok

Emma Turner · Post by **Emma Turner** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:01 pm

Hi Mick,

Please could you tell us your exact water test results for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate (you said ok, but exact figures would be more useful) so that we can rule out a water quality problem. The fact the loach is trying to rest out of water suggests that there is something in it that is making him want to escape. Also, have you rehomed the skunk loaches yet? I ask because in the PM you sent me, you mention white circular marks on the affected clown. Are these bite sized? Skunk loaches, as mentioned above, are definitely not suitable for the community aquarium, and as they are nocturnal, damage to tank mates is often carried out overnight.

Are the brown blotches anything like the ones discussed in this thread? http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php?t=2148

Emma

mick · Post by **mick** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 7:28 am

hi emma,,i will check the water again when i get home later today,,the ph was 7 ,,and the ammonia ,nitrites and nitrates were all in the bottom of the scale ,,colorwise ,it is nothing like the thread ,,,these marks were like birthmarks ,,and the white circles are 2,5cms round on 1 side and elongated the other i have got rid of the skunks ,i keep try to get a picture of the marks ,but its proving difficult, he is looking really ragged as well,he still appears to be feeding too ,sorry to be a pain but ihave really got attatched to spongebob an squidward (there names) thanks for your input ,,,,mick

mick · Post by **mick** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:34 pm

hi emma ,mick again ,,i think its too late for squidward ,i got home this afternoon and he looks like he is being eaten alive ,,the big white circle on his side has the flesh missing with scraps of skin around the edges its almost down to the bones in places ,,i have isolated him in case the other fish are doing it because he,s ill but im pretty sure i have to put him down water tests show ammonia,,,0,,,,,0.6,,,,,,,,no2,,,0.1,,,0.3,,,no3,,20 bear in mind this is a basic water testing kit any advice would be welcome ive tried taking pictures but they are not coming out clear enough to put on here ,,ill try again with a better camera tomorrow thanks mick

Emma Turner · Post by **Emma Turner** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 8:16 pm

Hi Mick,

If the tank is well established, your ammonia and nitrite should both be on zero, so there is a bit of a water quality issue there. Have you overcleaned the filters recently or lost any fish? Are you definitely not overfeeding?

I'm sorry to hear that the clown loach has got worse. To me it sounds like a bad bacterial infection such as Flexibacter, but would like to know what others think. Do the white circles have fluffy edges like fungus? Do they look red at all? If it is Flexibacter, you need to treat with an antibiotic product and improve water quality.

Best of luck,

Emma

mick · Post by **mick** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 6:16 am

thankks emma,,ill try a 25%water change ,cut down on feeding ,and check for the bacteriado i need to completly seperate the fish from the rest ,,,is the bacteria contageous?

shari2 · Post by **shari2** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:48 am

Hey, mick. Sorry to get in here late. you're not being a pain. helping people with their problems is one of the reasons we're here.

The circling and lip locking are territorial behaviors. Two clowns in a tank will tussle for dominance. The 'cut' under one eye - could it be you're seeing the suborbital spine opening?

It sounds to me like it may well have been caused by predation. Skunks are feisty little buggers. Glad to hear they are gone.

Is it possible that there may be decaying fish somewhere in the tank causing the nitrite spike? You mentioned the livebearers were food for the bigger fish - who eats them?
How long has the tank been set up?
Do the clowns have hiding places or could they be using the top of the filter as a place to hide?
Have you been able to set up a quarantine tank?
Are the lesions getting larger or do you think the white could be re-growth of skin/flesh?
Is there any fuzziness to the white edges?
Any redness indicating inflammation?
If he is still eating/moving around that is a good sign.

Best thing to do is put the sick clown in his own tank for treatment. Have you noticed any similar issues on any of the other fish? If so, you may have to treat the entire tank. If not, and it is injury related, clean (very clean!) water is the best place to start.
Do you use a gravel vacuum for water changes? Do you clean the filters? If so, how?

The best thing you can do to help us with diagnosing the problem is to post a few pictures. A full tank shot and any pics you can get of the lesions would be very helpful.

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