Levimasole

[mikev]

Do I smell a contradiction here?

If levamisole does break down after 24 hours, why is the need for water changes and carbon filter? Just turn the light on, easier for the fish and the owner.

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Large clowns...hmm...I placed an order for 125 yesterday....

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dosage was 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons.

I think we used exactly the same powder (I used your link to order originally). My dosing is 1 bottle cap for 10g for skinny and 1 bottle cap for 5g for direct worms....with them it is better to overkill.

[shari2]

Why the carbon and the water change? Because I just wanted to be sure
Water changes never hurt, and the carbon does a nice job of cleaning up any slight cloudiness.

If you smell that stuff it right stinks. Even in the tank. Smell the tank after a couple of days. If there's no smell...

[Emma Turner]

After another 24 hours (so 48 hours after the first treatment) you remove the carbon and re-dose.

This would be too soon in some cases.

For CWS (tapeworm infections or indirect roundworms) this is fine, in fact most of the work has been done by the first treatment. For direct worms, however, 48 hours will miss the eggs/larvae that did not develop into a vulnerable form of a worm yet.

If this is what you might be dealing with you need to space it out further, 4-5 days intervals, and more than two treatments.

Observe that if a direct worm is present, you cannot wait a few weeks

If after a few weeks, the fish still do not seem to be gaining weight

since after a few weeks the fish will be dead.

I was answering Mad Duff's question on dosing for Chronic Wasting Syndrome, and have advised on the dosage and method that has worked for us (on a number of fish species) for some years now.

That is my opinion. You do what you want, mikev.

Emma

[shari2]

Here goes:
From a website for it's use with humans:
http://www.drugs.com/cons/Levamisole.html

"# Store away from heat and direct light."

And from another site:
http://www.sciencelab.com/page/S/PVAR/10419/SLL1162

"Storage Information:
LIGHT SENSITIVE: Keep tightly closed in light-resistant containers."

We may be confusing ourselves here. Originally momfish's info said that levamisole was ineffective above a pH of 7.0. That we found (or she found-I can't remember) is NOT the case. The fact that it is light sensitive seems to be true, however.

[mikev]

Water changes never hurt

50% water changes do carry some risks, and some advocate 80% post-levamisole water changes.

Might be really good idea to find the truth one day.

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APPEND.

Emma, I'm not arguing with you. For CWS your technique is fine (and I wrote so above). For nematodes --- different WORM species, the situation is different. (You are very lucky if you did not encouter these things yet...)

Shari,

The Ph<=7.0 assertion I believe to be incorrect; there was a recent journal article that explicitly stated so.

Light-sensitivity: yes, I've seen this. It is not entirely certain if this applies to high-concentrated stored solutions only, or also to much weaker concentration in a tank, but if it does apply, it would seem that the huge water changes are just not needed. Additionally, from your links (and others that I've seen) it does not follow that levamisole will disintegrate in 24 hrs, for all we know, it takes much longer for the light to work. Still a major uncertainty here.

[Mad Duff]

Oh now im really getting confused as far as levimasole is concerned .

the carbon does a nice job of cleaning up any slight cloudiness.

If you smell that stuff it right stinks. Even in the tank. Smell the tank after a couple of days. If there's no smell...

I have to admit that it didn't cloud or colour the water and as for smell I cant say that I noticed, my tanks don't smell any different and as far as I know they don't stink already .

Water changes never hurt

50% water changes do carry some risks, and some advocate 80% post-levamisole water changes.

Might be really good idea to find the truth one day.

I did a 50% water change today, I don't think I would like the idea of an 80% water change.

As far as the truth is concerned with Levimasole I think it will be like finding the holy grail or rocking horse poo cant decide .

Just an update on the fish front.

The skinny Sidthimunki's seem a lot happier and were really going at the bloodworm tonight so there seems to be a bit of an improvement straight away.

[shari2]

"50% water changes do carry some risks, and some advocate 80% post-levamisole water changes. "

I would agree with this. I guess it depends on what you define 'large' as...

"Might be really good idea to find the truth one day."

good luck with that, and let me know when you do


"Light-sensitivity: yes, I've seen this. It is not entirely certain if this applies to high-concentrated stored solutions only, or also to much weaker concentration in a tank, but if it does apply, it would seem that the huge water changes are just not needed."

Maybe I'm just old school, but if I'm putting something in my tank to treat fish it is not part of their usual environment. Once the treatment is over, I want them back in their 'comfort zone'. For me, this means making sure the temporary additive is completely gone. And I don't do 'huge' water changes unless there is some kind of huge emergency. . .

A couple of times a year I may add carbon to a filter I'm cleaning and then remove it the next time. Primarily, I don't use it, but if there is any lack of clarity in the water I will add it for a bit. Usually clears things up very nicely. And yes, I see no harm in adding it after medication. Sometimes it is essential. Even after levamisole, which will break down on it's own, I will add it.

Fishkeepers are a bit like fishermen. We all have our tried and true habits that we stick with. And it has been said rather frequently on this forum that, 'your mileage may vary.'

[shari2]

"I have to admit that it didn't cloud or colour the water and as for smell I cant say that I noticed, my tanks don't smell any different and as far as I know they don't stink already."

Give your bottle a whiff. Maybe yours is different from mine, but it has what seems to me a quite unpleasant smell.

"I did a 50% water change today, I don't think I would like the idea of an 80% water change."

80% changes are for emergencies only, in my book. And you'd better test your water first!

"The skinny Sidthimunki's seem a lot happier and were really going at the bloodworm tonight so there seems to be a bit of an improvement straight away."

Every time I've used it I've noticed a nearly immediate improvement in fish behavior. It does take time for a fish that is showing serious wasting to regain the fullness behind the eyes, but you begin to see it within a week or so. If not, I'd do another treatment. Just my personal experience.

[mikev]

With Carbon I have no problem with (but I found that UV improves the water transparency better).

With Water changes I actually do, and (after being burned badly by a massive water change) I chose for 15% daily changes instead. I think it accomplishes the same with less stress/risks.

This is not an advice, all situations are different.

BTW, in a store environment with unlimited supply of similar water, even a 100% change may be ok, but at home this is imho risky.


Append.

Give your bottle a whiff. Maybe yours is different from mine, but it has what seems to me a quite unpleasant smell.

Confirming this. Taste too, btw.

It does take time for a fish that is showing serious wasting to regain the fullness behind the eyes, but you begin to see it within a week or so.

Confirming this too. Watch the appetite, it seems that "cured" fish often develops very strong appetite within a couple of days after the treatment.

[mikev]

Explanation for Emma:

What is happening here is that your technique cures most of nematodic infections too (if you apply levamisole to all new fish upon their arrival), and you don't see them emerging. A very nice extra bonus, especially since nematodic infections are a way more serious problem than CWS. BUT: due to the livecycle of nematodes you are bound to miss some cases if you space the treatments so closely to each other.

For instance, if a loach got infected just a day before being shipped to you, its worm is not yet vulnerable.

Alternatively, if a loach has a mature worm(s) inside, this worm will be killed by the 1st treatment and probably excreted. Some other loach will eat it and will get infected, but -- alas -- the new baby worms are not yet vulnerable to levamisole, so they escape your 2nd treatment too. In a scenario like this, you get problems in 2-3 weeks when the worm matures.

When Momfish' FAQ says:

Repeat the dose after 3 to 4 days because any eggs or casings present in the fish are not affected by the drug

it is actually on target. For myself, I've changed this to "5 days" because even a 5-day old worm would not be yet dangerous enough, but there may be situations where the development of the worm is slower...and I want to reliably kill them all on the 2nd round.

When a disease is known to be present, even better would be more than 2 treatments, 3-4 days apart, again, this is what the FAQ seems to be suggesting.

[Mad Duff]

Confirming this. Taste too, btw.

I will take your word for it Mike .

I will watch the Sidi's in the morning when I feed them, but if tonight is anything to go by they seem to really have an appetite that they didn't seem to have before, I have even seen a difference in the peppered cories that share the tank with them.

I think I will do a second dose next week, one of the main reasons for this is I don't do water changes at weekends as our water supply alters over the weekend. I have been told that because it is a busy time the levels of chlorine and other stuff is at higher levels at this time.

[mikev]

Mad,

there are two reasons for 2nd (and multiple treatments):

1. For CWS (your case) it is simply statistics. Levamisole takes out say 99% of the worms, two treatments will take out 99.99%. Thus it does not matter much how you space the treatments: 2 days apart, or a week (and probably one month will do just as well).

2. For direct worms (usually nematodes) it is the life cycle. Levamisole does not take out eggs, so you need to kill the adults, let the eggs develop into juvenile worms, and kill them before they create more eggs. Thus, timing is of great importance: two day interval is too short for the eggs to develop, but if you are to give them a two week interval, they may develop into mature adults, and you are back where you started.

hth

[Mad Duff]

Cheers Mike

Like I said I dont like doing water changes on weekends so the doses would have been spaced out abit anyway, I will do the second dose on Monday which will be 5 days after the first.

[andyroo]

Put in Levamisol treatment this AM.
Forgot about light sensitivity, but also wanted to observe effects/dramas.

Dose: about 100ml of 1.6% solution into about 65 gal according to LOL instructions above.

Don't notice any particular smell.
Bright yellow colour/water stained.

Everybody is seeming healthy/happy BUT for cichlids. All have darkened and seem uncomfortable/reduced vigor, though show no particular distress beyond this. Cichlid spp include mature angels and orange chormides (born and bread in pure fresh water by local guy...)

Is this cichlid reaction normal? Should i water-change ASAP or let it sit until morning/24 hr dose? (tank gets a lot of natural light)
Is this local Lavamisol somehow not what is on the package?

A

[shari2]

the only medication I ever used that turned the water a bright yellow was Binox, an antibiotic treatment which I think was a combo of sodium chloride and nitrofurazone.. .

Acriflavine will also stain the water yellow. In fact, it is a yellow dye used for its anticeptic properties

Levamisole has never caused a color change in my tanks...