Hi there,
I have 10 clown loaches in a 5ft 150G tank. I have had them for about 4 years and they range in length from 4-8 inches long. Other tankmates are 3 yo-yos and one med. sized Gourami.
The problem I have is that the 3 biggest loaches are always fighting now. One loach in particular is able to attack the
other loaches and cause flesh wounds (breaks past the skin layer). The same spot each time, the front border of the black band closest to the head. It looks horrible.
I have now separated these 3 in the same tank with clear acrylic and it seems to have allowed healing, but once they all get together again they go at it once more. They have plenty of hiding places, tubes driftwood and are fed well.
I have purchased another big tank (8ft) but will have to sell as I've moved to a new smaller house. I can only think of giving 2 of my biggest loaches away to another loach lover.
Any suggestions?
Nick
Aggressive large clowns
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BotiaMaximus
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Wow - that sure sounds like an unusual level of aggression and not the norm. I can understand some scrapping for Alpha status but your guys are really taking it to new levels, that's a shame. There are always situations that go beyond the ordinary and unfortunately it sounds like you have one of those.
Is it just one of the big guys that is obviously the troublemaker or is it equal between the 3?
Could you maybe just re-home the troublemaker and keep the 2 less agrresive? Or the 1 least aggressive of the 3? Hate to see you give up all 3.
With those thought in mind, I'm sure if you have a good relationship with a local shop they would be more than happy to trade you the big guys for 3 smaller ones.
The only other thought I had was completely rearranging everything in your tank so they all feel like they are in a new tank, but that could either calm them down - or make them start all over again. You sort of did that anyway by blocking them off and it didn't help.
Your posting here is bound to get plenty of replies by some very experienced fishkeepers - so hang tight and some other ideas are bound to start rolling in.
Best of luck!
Keith
"Long May You Loach"
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mickthefish
- Posts: 3281
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- Location: manchester, england
Too bad you could not keep the longer tank. With some aggression issues just being able to go away a bit farther is all it takes to calm the dominant fish.
With only 5' to separate the fish the dominant fish is thinking the subordinate fish(es) are not going far enough away, and are hanging around to challenge him again. So he attacks, again.
I do not see a solution that includes keeping all three in this tank. Even though the gallonage is large, the footprint is not right for the social issues that have cropped up.
It may not even work in a larger tank, if you had kept the 8' long one, but maybe...
With only 5' to separate the fish the dominant fish is thinking the subordinate fish(es) are not going far enough away, and are hanging around to challenge him again. So he attacks, again.
I do not see a solution that includes keeping all three in this tank. Even though the gallonage is large, the footprint is not right for the social issues that have cropped up.
It may not even work in a larger tank, if you had kept the 8' long one, but maybe...
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.
Happy fish keeping!
Happy fish keeping!
BotiaMaximus made a good point about rearranging the tank decor.
I have an 8 ft tank and one of my clowns was very mean and aggressive. It seems like this problem faded away after I removed the old island cave and added a much more spacious island cave. I also added more driftwood. Not sure why this made a difference, but it did.
I have an 8 ft tank and one of my clowns was very mean and aggressive. It seems like this problem faded away after I removed the old island cave and added a much more spacious island cave. I also added more driftwood. Not sure why this made a difference, but it did.
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BotiaMaximus
- Posts: 536
- Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 9:54 pm
- Location: St. Pete, Florida
It works with Cichlids. Kinda hits their reset button. Calls a time-out and makes everyone start over again. Thought it could be worth a try.
Might have to keep it in mind myself. I have 7 clowns all very close in size - about 4". I have a multi layered alpha struggle going on with multiple pairs and sets scrapping at the same time. I'm hoping to get a few more here soon and hopefully that will have the same effect.
Availability of quality fish here is very limited, so getting up to my desired numbers is taking forever, but maybe that isn't a bad thing in this respect.
Might have to keep it in mind myself. I have 7 clowns all very close in size - about 4". I have a multi layered alpha struggle going on with multiple pairs and sets scrapping at the same time. I'm hoping to get a few more here soon and hopefully that will have the same effect.
Availability of quality fish here is very limited, so getting up to my desired numbers is taking forever, but maybe that isn't a bad thing in this respect.
"Long May You Loach"
Thank you all for your advice -
It is only the one loach that can attack and cause flesh wounds - the others fight like all the others, by pushing, lip locking and circling around whilst greyed out.
This particular clown has always been dominant - was ranked 6th or 7th in size 2 1/2 years ago and would challenge the alpha who was more than double his size at the time. "Crazy" as we have named him, has had the most rapid growth out of all my clowns and is now the 3rd biggest. I can see that he will be bigger than the current alpha in a couple of years.
I have read in previous posts that in large groups the aggression should be spread out. However, "Crazy" is able to beat up almost all 9 other fish at the same time and only occasionally has a minor scratch on his body. One slower big clown always comes off second best.
I will add more driftwood - make more caves with more space. I envy some of the group photos on this forum that show loaches all getting along!
It is only the one loach that can attack and cause flesh wounds - the others fight like all the others, by pushing, lip locking and circling around whilst greyed out.
This particular clown has always been dominant - was ranked 6th or 7th in size 2 1/2 years ago and would challenge the alpha who was more than double his size at the time. "Crazy" as we have named him, has had the most rapid growth out of all my clowns and is now the 3rd biggest. I can see that he will be bigger than the current alpha in a couple of years.
I have read in previous posts that in large groups the aggression should be spread out. However, "Crazy" is able to beat up almost all 9 other fish at the same time and only occasionally has a minor scratch on his body. One slower big clown always comes off second best.
I will add more driftwood - make more caves with more space. I envy some of the group photos on this forum that show loaches all getting along!
It sounds like Crazy is at the far end of the aggression bell curve, and probably should not be in there with the other fish. The more normal tussling that you are seeing between the others, more or less spread out is typical. There may be a rare minor injury, but none are really being aggressive just because they are that way. They are simply testing and reminding each other of their ranking. A single fish of a social species that is that aggressive is not the norm, and can do some serious damage to his tank mates in such a confined space.
In a large river or lake the other fish would go far away from him.
In a large river or lake the other fish would go far away from him.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.
Happy fish keeping!
Happy fish keeping!
I've added more driftwood and created more/bigger caves. The 'crazy' loach is fighting right now and causing more flesh wounds on the current alpha and another big loach. I'm hoping it will stop soon once 'crazy' assumes the role of the alpha loach and the heirarchy is established.
Does anyone know if these 'alpha' clown loach fights can be fatal?
Do any of you with large clowns try and 'stop' the fight or do you let them sort it out?
Nick
Does anyone know if these 'alpha' clown loach fights can be fatal?
Do any of you with large clowns try and 'stop' the fight or do you let them sort it out?
Nick
Clowns Loaches and many other Loaches are equipped with some pretty sharp weapons, the spines under their eyes. These sharp weapons can do some serious damage as you are seeing. Any one wound by itself is not too likely to kill the attacked fish, but an accumulation of wounds can, and if the wounds get infected then what may have started as a minor injury can result in death.
I am not sure how to stop it, except by removing the aggressive Loach. If this one is simply so much more aggressive that he is causing most of the wounds, and the others are doing the more common minor arguing, then removing the one will help.
If you have already tried rearranging the decor, adding more caves, making some larger and other things, and the aggression is still going on, I think the next step is to remove this one fish. The remainder will argue about alpha position, but hopefully not so aggressively, and once the social structure is reorganized the fighting will stop.
Ways the injuries and stress can kill:
1) Infection. An injury allows bacteria and fungus to infect the fish. Bacterial infection may be slowed by Melafix and Pimafix, but read the other posts here about these products before using them in this case. Do not use them if you have Bichers or similar primitive fish in the tank. There is direct evidence that Melafix affects the breathing of these fish. Do not use Melafix if you have labyrinth fish in the tank. Even the company that makes it knows that, and makes a slightly different product called Beta-fix for these fish.
Keeping the water extra clean, lowest possible nitrates and lowest possible organic materials will help the healing with the least risk of infection.
2) Osmotic issues. Usually a fish is covered with slime coat except for the gills and digestive tract. A certain amount of water enters the fishes' cells from these locations, but not through the slime coat, and the fishes' osmoregulatory system is entirely capable of removing the excess water that comes in this way. When a fish has significant injuries that disrupt the slime coat more water can enter the fishes' cells through the injured tissue.
Also, an injured fish or a fish that is stressed for other reasons (here, social reasons) seems to allow more water to enter their system than is normal, and for both these reasons may overwhelm the osmoregulatory system. A fish under stress or injured may benefit if the TDS is raised in the tank (hospital tank, or main tank) because when the TDS is raised less water tends to enter the fishes' cells. This is the reason that salt can be helpful to stressed fish.
3) Stressed fish tend to produce more ammonia than average for that fish. In an established tank the nitrifying bacteria and plants are quite capable of handling a small rise in ammonia, and it usually does not go on for long. If this is an on-going problem, though, with the ammonia rising and falling there may be minor water quality issues.
4) I do not know if Clown Loaches produce any stress hormones, but I do know that schooling fish can. They uses these chemicals to warn the rest of the school that danger (predator) is near. Then the school swims out of the area where the stress hormone was released. In a tank they cannot swim away and so live in a situation where their chemical message remains for longer than normal, continuing to stress the fish.
I have seen posts here where stressed Loaches, in a small volume of water (a shipping bag) produced some sort of toxin that killed the other fish. It seemed to be related to excess slime coat production, as there was a lot of 'goo' in the water that seemed like excess slime coat.
I am not sure how to stop it, except by removing the aggressive Loach. If this one is simply so much more aggressive that he is causing most of the wounds, and the others are doing the more common minor arguing, then removing the one will help.
If you have already tried rearranging the decor, adding more caves, making some larger and other things, and the aggression is still going on, I think the next step is to remove this one fish. The remainder will argue about alpha position, but hopefully not so aggressively, and once the social structure is reorganized the fighting will stop.
Ways the injuries and stress can kill:
1) Infection. An injury allows bacteria and fungus to infect the fish. Bacterial infection may be slowed by Melafix and Pimafix, but read the other posts here about these products before using them in this case. Do not use them if you have Bichers or similar primitive fish in the tank. There is direct evidence that Melafix affects the breathing of these fish. Do not use Melafix if you have labyrinth fish in the tank. Even the company that makes it knows that, and makes a slightly different product called Beta-fix for these fish.
Keeping the water extra clean, lowest possible nitrates and lowest possible organic materials will help the healing with the least risk of infection.
2) Osmotic issues. Usually a fish is covered with slime coat except for the gills and digestive tract. A certain amount of water enters the fishes' cells from these locations, but not through the slime coat, and the fishes' osmoregulatory system is entirely capable of removing the excess water that comes in this way. When a fish has significant injuries that disrupt the slime coat more water can enter the fishes' cells through the injured tissue.
Also, an injured fish or a fish that is stressed for other reasons (here, social reasons) seems to allow more water to enter their system than is normal, and for both these reasons may overwhelm the osmoregulatory system. A fish under stress or injured may benefit if the TDS is raised in the tank (hospital tank, or main tank) because when the TDS is raised less water tends to enter the fishes' cells. This is the reason that salt can be helpful to stressed fish.
3) Stressed fish tend to produce more ammonia than average for that fish. In an established tank the nitrifying bacteria and plants are quite capable of handling a small rise in ammonia, and it usually does not go on for long. If this is an on-going problem, though, with the ammonia rising and falling there may be minor water quality issues.
4) I do not know if Clown Loaches produce any stress hormones, but I do know that schooling fish can. They uses these chemicals to warn the rest of the school that danger (predator) is near. Then the school swims out of the area where the stress hormone was released. In a tank they cannot swim away and so live in a situation where their chemical message remains for longer than normal, continuing to stress the fish.
I have seen posts here where stressed Loaches, in a small volume of water (a shipping bag) produced some sort of toxin that killed the other fish. It seemed to be related to excess slime coat production, as there was a lot of 'goo' in the water that seemed like excess slime coat.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.
Happy fish keeping!
Happy fish keeping!
Think of a simple bell curve.
In the middle of the hump are a range of fish personalities that are common within the species from somewhat shy to somewhat aggressive, perhaps numbered 1, 2, 3, 4... but not going too far in either direction. Far to the right would be a point marked A- more aggressive than average. Far to the left would be a point marked B- more shy than average.
If most of this species are in the numbered area, varying from somewhat shy to somewhat aggressive this is the normal range for the species, and the social dynamics will usually work themselves out with a little arguing, but not much.
If a fish comes from either extreme, though, then there can be problems. A fish from the B end of the curve, much shier than average for the species is likely to starve, or be always hiding, or always at the low end of the social spectrum, to the point that even the 'average-shy' fish are attacking it. Sometimes within a group these are the younger fish. Some species seem to accept younger or smaller fish without quite so much arguing and these smaller fish do fine. Other species can be quite hard on the smaller ones to the point that it is better to raise the juveniles separately until they are big enough to compete.
A fish from the A end of the bell curve sounds like your very aggressive Clown Loach. Too aggressive for the normal give and take that is appropriate among this species. This sort of fish will not calm down, and live well with the others.
In the middle of the hump are a range of fish personalities that are common within the species from somewhat shy to somewhat aggressive, perhaps numbered 1, 2, 3, 4... but not going too far in either direction. Far to the right would be a point marked A- more aggressive than average. Far to the left would be a point marked B- more shy than average.
If most of this species are in the numbered area, varying from somewhat shy to somewhat aggressive this is the normal range for the species, and the social dynamics will usually work themselves out with a little arguing, but not much.
If a fish comes from either extreme, though, then there can be problems. A fish from the B end of the curve, much shier than average for the species is likely to starve, or be always hiding, or always at the low end of the social spectrum, to the point that even the 'average-shy' fish are attacking it. Sometimes within a group these are the younger fish. Some species seem to accept younger or smaller fish without quite so much arguing and these smaller fish do fine. Other species can be quite hard on the smaller ones to the point that it is better to raise the juveniles separately until they are big enough to compete.
A fish from the A end of the bell curve sounds like your very aggressive Clown Loach. Too aggressive for the normal give and take that is appropriate among this species. This sort of fish will not calm down, and live well with the others.
Last edited by Diana on Sun May 31, 2009 1:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.
Happy fish keeping!
Happy fish keeping!
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BotiaMaximus
- Posts: 536
- Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 9:54 pm
- Location: St. Pete, Florida
There's "crazy goofy" and "crazy dangerous" this clown unfortunately sounds like "crazy dangerous". I'd have to agree, this fish needs to go to another tank.
Clowns fight, but not at this level. This fish is causing serious targeted injury, just like you explained. Those big cuts in the same place on both sides are enough for me.
I don't have much to offer for who Crazy's new tankmates could be, anything with this fish would be experimental.
Clowns fight, but not at this level. This fish is causing serious targeted injury, just like you explained. Those big cuts in the same place on both sides are enough for me.
I don't have much to offer for who Crazy's new tankmates could be, anything with this fish would be experimental.
"Long May You Loach"
Hey thanks for the info guys!
I took the risk and let Crazy fight it out last night with the alpha - and he won. My alpha loach Dot has been at the top of the heirarchy for years and hid in a cave after losing the battle with 'tail between the legs'. Order seemed to have been restored until another little spat this morning - though now the fight doesn't last very long at all. The smaller clowns all follow Crazy around the tank now. I will keep a watchful eye over those injured to ensure healing.
I've always known that Crazy was a bit different, physically. His head is larger proportionally with a more pronouned snout. As I watched the fight, it was like watching a boxing match with only one fighter being able to jab. After disengaging from the locked mouth position or after loachy pushing and turning, Crazy goes for the body shot and bites the flank.
I really don't want to separate my loach if I could, so this is his last chance! But you're right - this can't go on
I took the risk and let Crazy fight it out last night with the alpha - and he won. My alpha loach Dot has been at the top of the heirarchy for years and hid in a cave after losing the battle with 'tail between the legs'. Order seemed to have been restored until another little spat this morning - though now the fight doesn't last very long at all. The smaller clowns all follow Crazy around the tank now. I will keep a watchful eye over those injured to ensure healing.
I've always known that Crazy was a bit different, physically. His head is larger proportionally with a more pronouned snout. As I watched the fight, it was like watching a boxing match with only one fighter being able to jab. After disengaging from the locked mouth position or after loachy pushing and turning, Crazy goes for the body shot and bites the flank.
I really don't want to separate my loach if I could, so this is his last chance! But you're right - this can't go on
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