Very Sick Weather Loach:(

[soul-hugger]

Hello..,

It has been a long time since I have been here, and a lot has happened since then; most of it bitter-sweet. First of all, I have moved back to Saskatoon. Fortunately I didn't lose a single fish!!

This is the second time I am writing this because my first attempt was lost when I accidentally hit the wrong button, and it was long and very detailed too! Frustrating! This time I will give a more abbreviated version of what I said the first time, in the hopes that someone can help.

Last week I brought home a weather Loach and set her up in my 10G quarantine, to later enlarge my group of three. (She is not a juvenile, and is about 6 inches long). I knew right away something was a little different about her, and wasn't sure if the things I was seeing were the result of deformity or disease. Whenever I have brought fish home before, they have turned out to be healthy and medication was unnecessary. This time I regret to have decided to try TLC before making a decision as to a course of action.

Right away I noticed that along her length there were very regular, longish narrow bumps. They are so regular I wondered if they may be a sign of emaciation since she was in a tank with 50 or so small top-dwelling fish and nobody at the store knew what she was. There is also a flat, oval, 2mm black mark on her side which I figured may be a birthmark or scar. Even her fins and tail are an unusual shape, seeming to be pinched at one point, with the rays appearing wavy rather than straight, but carried normally. Her eyes seemed larger than I have seen on a weather loach before, and were one of the reasons I brought her home and called her a "girl", but did not seem abnormal. The whole eye was large, including the pupil.

At first she seemed to be doing well and was active, but today she is so lethargic I can pet her (the skin is quite slimy.) Her eyes are bulging and clouded over, and her barbels are drooping. There is also a very fine, faint dusting of yellowish (as far as I can tell) powder which is far too fine to be ich. In fact, it is so fine that if I had not noticed the other things, I may not have seen it. Her breathing is very laboured, and she comes frequently to the surface for air. I just looked again, and already, since just two hours ago, the spots look bigger, and a little more like ich. There have also appeared small red streaks on her skin that look like very fine blood vessels. She looks a little pale and puffy behind the gills, as well. I hope she will make it through the night.

Tomorrow I am going immediately to get a medication for her, but I don't know what to buy. I have successfully treated for ich before, but I'm not so sure this is ich. It seems to be happenning really fast to be ich. I have changed the water, added an airstone, and lowered the water level so there will be increased oxygen. Being a Weather Loach I know it is a bad idea to raise the temperature. It is about 73 degrees, and I don't think I should turn on the heater.

Here are the water parameters, just taken;

pH: 7.6
Ammonia: slightly over 0
Nitrites: 0.1
Nitrates: Between 0 and 5

If anyone has any ideas, your advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thank-you very much
soul-hugger

[chefkeith]

Sounds like Velvet (Oodinium) . Acriflavine can be used to treat it. It helps to keep the lights off in the tank also.

Before treating the tank with medication do plenty of water changes. You need to get the Nitrites down to 0 also. Try increasing the filtration. Can you move an established filter from your main tank to this tank? Or just get some media from an established filter and put in a new filter on this tank.

[soul-hugger]

Hi, Chefkeith..,

Thanks for the advice, but it's too late, I just went and checked, and she is lying upside down, dead. On her underside are bloody spots, some of them quite large in size.

I feel so guilty and stupid because I should have seen it coming.

I checked on her every day several time a day and it was not until today that it looked like anything serious. In fact, the bloody spots didn't show up until just a couple of hours ago, as far as I could tell.

Just think of what would have happened if I had put her in with my other fish.

What a shame. I'm very sorry not to have had at least a chance to try to save her.

And I should go to that store and tell them to quarantine all the fish in that tank immediately.

[soul-hugger]

This is from National fish pharm.com. I now believe my fish had either tuberculosis or abdominal dropsy. The ich or velvet was simply a secondary infection resulting from the stress of the other. I think that was what I was seeing with the long bumps on her side near her dorsal fin.; the thinning of the upper skin and weight loss in that area.


Q: Both of my fish's eyes are popped out to the side.
A: These are the starting symptoms of Abdominal Dropsy. Very few fish survive this condition.

Treatment: Move the affected fish to an isolation tank and raise the temperature to 84-86 degrees fahrenheit. Treat the fish with 1 dose of Gentamycin Sulfate Powder and leave the medication in the water for 7 days, with no water changes during treatment time. When treatment is finished, add the carbon back to the filtration, and slowly lower the temperature back to normal over several days time

C). Do the eyes slowly begin to protrude?
a). Tuberculosis
b). Abdominal dropsy
a). Treat with Kanamycin + Vitamin B-6.
b). Treat with Gentamycin Sulfate or Oxolinic Acid. or Koi Fix®


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

D). Many fish lose weight and show a sharp edge to the ridge of the dorsum (thinning of the upper body), The body sinks in, the fish darken in color. The eyes can also sink in Your fish are probably affected with intestinal flagellates or worms. Examine a fecal smear under the microscope Treat with Paracide-D -or- Paracide-X. If not,

Tuberculosis or abdominal dropsy can also be the cause


I just knew it was something really serious.

But the question is; now what do I do??? Her body is still in the tank. The filter is still running. I have not touched anything since I changed some of the water earlier.

If it was tubercuosis it can be contagious to humans.

There were a lot of other fish with her in the tank at the store.

Am I worrying too much, or should I really be concerned?? I know about Gentamycin. When it is suggested it is only for the most serious of cases. I was on it when I almost died of a heart infection in 2003.

soul-hugger

[helen nightingale]

sorry to hear your loss. it sounds like you did your best and that she was beyond saving, but at least you tried

a very good thing you put her in the Q tank

[chefkeith]

Sorry to hear it.

I'd net the fish and put in in a zip lock plastic bag, then put the zip-lock bag in a paper bag, then put it in the garbage.

Empty the tank, then disinfect everything that was in contact with tanks water.

If you used a gravel vac, did you use the gravel vac for other tanks? If so, then cross contamination has to be considered.

You're probably right that the fish had a multitude of pathogens. Internal and external. Bacterial and parasitic.

Ich and Velvet are not caused by stress though. These parasites cannot live without a host. Stress only gives the parasite more opportunity to spread from the gills to other more visible parts of the body.

[Diana]

To sterilize tank and equipment:
Any of the following will work for most disease and parasite issues:

Strong salt water solution. I even use dry salt as an abrasive to scrub the tank etc. Plenty of rinsing with tap water.

Hydrogen peroxide. I would use it straight from the bottle and wipe down everything. You could run the tank with mostly water, but add a full bottle of hydrogen peroxide. (Pint bottles are about 50 cents, at Dollar Tree sorts of stores) Rinse, then expose things to the sun. Sunlight changes hydrogen peroxide to water and oxygen.

Bleach: diluted chlorine bleach will kill a lot of things, and rinse water should contain dechlor.

Potassium permanganate added to the water until the water is very deeply colored, let it sit (run the filter to circulate) then rinse. Stains stuff. After rinsing with water do a hydrogen peroxide rinse, or run the tank with hydrogen peroxide in the water. (hydrogen peroxide deactivates it)

Some decor can go through the dishwasher. Rocks and driftwood are OK on the bottom rack, but I would keep plastic plants on the top, if at all.

However, these are not the best for Mycobacteriosis (Fish TB).
For this one you need to use rubbing alcohol, full strength. Lots of rinsing.

Do the very best you can to make every bit of the equipment, gravel, decor... come in contact with the product you are using. Let it soak.

Plenty of rinsing with hot, soapy tap water, followed by whatever deactivates the active ingredient.
For example if I used bleach I would follow up with rinsing several times, hot soapy water scrub, then run the tank and all for a day or two with double dose of dechlor, followed by another rinse, scrub and double-dechlor. Then set it all out in the sun for a few days.

No matter which one I used I would follow up by exposing everything to the sun for a few days.

DO NOT MIX INGREDIENTS

Wear gloves that are suggested for the product you are using, eye protection, and protect whatever surface you are working on.

It is OK to throw away stuff that cannot be cleaned. Live plants, for example.

Obviously after treatment like this there will be no nitrifying bacteria left in the filter. If you want to get more fish right away you would need to swap some media with the established tank, or buy some Tetra Safe Start or Dr. Tim's One and Only.
If you wanted to do a fishless cycle in this tank this would give it several more weeks of running without any hosts for any of the parasites or disease organisms.

[soul-hugger]

Thank-you for your replies and consolation.

I have never seen a fish die so fast before. Fortunately, there was no sharing of objects, or I would be really worried. I might even throw the supplies away, especially the hose for the gravel vac and the net. The gravel, plants, and driftwood I will throw away for sure. Could the remainder of the gravel vac be boiled? Otherwise I can just get a new one. I was thinking the filter should be sterilized as well, but I have to wonder if it was really working as well as it should have been. I have also never had a fish in a tank by itself before; usually if one won't show distress, another will. It is just as well this time.

I am very sorry to lose her after so short a time, but even before I brought her home, I knew something was wrong. I would have felt better if I could have at least tried the medication, but you're right to say that stress itself does not cause illness, especially parasites, only brings it out. I may just have to come up with a treatment plan for new fish and begin treating them right away, even though up until now I always hated to give the medication if there was no need.

Is it ok to use bleach to disinfect the tank if I rinse it extra carefully, or is there another disinfectant that would be better?

Thanks...,
soul-hugger

[soul-hugger]

Thank-you, Diana, you have just answered my questions:)

soul-hugger

[sam]

Hi I wonder if anyone out there can help me?
I am very new beginner with fish but fell madly in love with my roach he/ she is so cool and i have been reading endlessly up on how to care for them etc.
Everything was going well and i decided to add another weather loach to my tank as i know they do better in groups but i made a huge mistake and the fish i got from the fish shop i put directly in my tank without waiting and putting it into quarantine!
After a few days of not eating a white area appeared on its side and eventually it looked like it was eating away the skin as a reddish area appeared. the white area grew and once again was replaced by red. eventually after going back and forth to the fish shop etc it died. The other fish seemed ok until 2 days ago when the same thing appeared on my remaining loach.
I have done water changes and nitrate etc is all ok, fish shop has not been any help although i have been putting Melafix and Pimafix daily in the water which did not help my other loach and i am worried it is not really helping this one.
Please let me know if you have experienced this before or have any ideas what i should do..

[Diana]

There are 2 possible diseases here, both are bacterial.
White on the surface sounds like Flavobacteria columanris, and it can progress to ulcers and reddening inside the fish.
Aeremonas is the other possibility.

Part of the treatment is to keep the aquarium as clean as possible. Plenty of gravel vacs to remove organic debris, water changes to keep the nitrite as low as possible, under 20 ppm for sure, and under 10 ppm if at all possible.

Antibiotics can help both of these diseases when they are caught early, but when the problem has progressed to large open wounds it is pretty far gone. A mild product like Pimafix or Melafix can help when a bacteria or fungal porblem starts on the outside of the fish. These products are not helpful when the problem is internal. There have been some issues with Melafix and certain groups of fish. Do not use it with primitive fish such as Bichers, or with Anabantoids. Some people here at Loaches have seen problems with their Loaches when Melafix had been added to the water.

[sam]

Hi diana,
Thank you so much for your reply,
I have spoken to my fish shop and they say antibiotics cost around $100 and they can get them only in large orders ie not just for one fish, i will do a major clean now as i had only been doing a 20% water change before- scared to shock the fish, will pay attention to gravel etc.
The pet shop told me to get some TCP antiseptic ointment and put that on the affected area, what do you think- HELP

[gosgirl]

Thanks for the advice!


_____________________________
24 Hours seasons1-7 dvd
Walt-Disneys-100-Years-Of-Magic-DVD-Boxset-DVDSNCIS dvd
House m.d dvd

[Diana]

You can use certainly over the counter antibiotic ointments on fish. I do not know which ones are available or safe.

Also, I do not know how effective they are if the disease is deeper in, a systemic infection and the ulcers are just one of the effects.

I have read about using the following:

Betadine. Use it ONCE then leave the injury alone.

Hydrogen peroxide. A trace is OK in the water (up to 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons) but you are not adding this to the water, you are dripping a little bit onto the ulcer(s).

You can certainly look around on line for more medicines, perhaps find out if something that is available locally can be used.