Long battle with Ich...I need help

[chefkeith]

Oh yes, mussels are great loach food too.

After thinking about it, if you cooked the snails, that would kill any hitch hikers. I wonder if it would be easier or harder for loaches to suck the snails out of the shells if they were cooked 1st?

[Tay690]

I put a green 1/2 shell mussel in last night and they were kind of scared at first...turned the lights off woke up this morning and half of it was gone (for 6 2-4 inch loaches...not too shabby)

I removed what was left

One of my loaches is dieing...I'm very upset

he's showing the same symptoms the corys were showing before they died

irradic swimming and unable to control his swim bladder...just before I left he was hiding behind the heater kind of wedged between the glass and heater

his breathing is extremely fast and his spines are exposed...he's very upset and probably will be dead by the time I get home

this is exactly what happened to the corys before they died...but i attributed that to the salt concentration being too strong for them...since all 4 died within hours of eachother

I don't know what this could be though....this sucks

probably 5 loaches left and I don't see any more spots so far as I can see

[Tay690]

well I think he got his swim bladder under control
I called the wife and she said she can't see him floating anywhere outside at all

I'm worried he might have gone back inside the cave to live out his final moments but I can't check right now

she can't see anything floating in the cave which is a good sign...so maybe he just ate too much or ate too much air or something

I dunno

I was also wondering if there was something I could do to remove all possibilities of bacteria being introduced into the tank by either boiling or cooking the mussel before it goes in...is that a good idea or will it strip all the good stuff out of the mussel?

[chefkeith]

I hope he's OK when you get home.

[Tay690]

i didn't see him when I got home at all so i figured he was ok...

but this morning I woke up and found him lying on the substrate again...spines exposed and his body looks very stiff

like he's unable to move his tail fin if that makes any sense

i thought it was possibly ich in the gills but maybe it's spread into his intestines or something...

should I isolate him? I plan to do a WC tonight when I get home but other than that I don't know what to do for this guy...any meds I should try?

I really don't want him to die

[chefkeith]

Yes, you should isolate him. It sounds like he's going to expire soon. I'd put him in a bucket or container with just enough of the tank water to cover him. That might help him get some oxygen.

[bigpow]

sorry to hijack, but what's the general practice for ich treatment post outbreak?

Like in case there was an ich outbreak and after 3 wks with no meds (only high temp), the fish survived and there was no more signs of ich.
Does it makes sens to dose the tank with ich meds still?

How stubborn is ich, post an outbreak?

[Tay690]

I'll let keith answer that better

but I would say "Yes"

especially after all the problems I've been having irradicating it

[Holdstrong]

From my limited experience... it seems possible to beat back an Ich outbreak in such a way that the outbreak seems to be over, but the ich organism still persists. Laying low, waiting for the right conditions or a stressed fish to break out again.

I recently stopped treatment after several days of apparent recovery, only to go through it all again not long after. I'm not sure how I would handle treating a tank that appears to be clear, or in remission. My instinct is to not treat a tank unless you know for sure ich is still present (unless this is a new or quarantine tank)

[chefkeith]

bigpow- It depends on the situation. You'll need to start a new thread and tell us more about the history of tank and the fish.

In general, total treatment time depends on the ich strain. If the visible white spots only last a week, then you keep medicating for about a week after you see the last ich spot. If the individual ich spots have a duration of 1+ weeks, then the post medication treatment should match that duration time. It's tricky business with the tougher strains of ich.

Long-term use of meds is the problem. Most ich medications may intoxicate the fish after a few weeks of using them. In these cases, a salt treatment is probably the best solution, but only if you can administer it properly.

[Tay690]

Well well well,

Guess who fixed the dieing loaches problem? I DID!
and I suspect it was ich in the gills...
the new cave I put in that allows water to flow through has a little nook close to the top exit of the cave...it's kind of hollowed out around the interior and the sick guy kept wedging himself in there ALL DAY

so I removed the cave last night after a severe WC and this morning he was absolutely fine...no symptoms like the previous mornings whatsoever

he's schooling with the others and foraging for food...swim bladder is absolutely perfect...and I couldn't be happier

the loaches are pretty upset because there are no hiding spots at the moment...so the big guy is hiding behind the filter with his buddy and they won't let anyone else hide there...I might have to grab a piece of slate this weekend and lean it against the glass so at least they have somewhere to hide...but I'm really hesitant to do so because of the issues I've been having with enclosed areas re-infecting my fish

but long story short... HE'S OK! AND I'M SUPER HAPPY HE DIDN'T DIE!

still no loach casualties *knock on wood*

[bigpow]

Thanks chefkeith.
Just something for my own reference.

It happened to old clown gang a few years ago. Never used any meds, only high temp + salt + UV.
Similarly, it happened to my new gang of clown a month ago, same treatment like last time. No ich meds.

[Tay690]

Ok all the spots are gone now so far as I can see...

One of the small loaches died this morning though (not the one that was swimming irradically surprisingly)

How long should I continue the treatment for?

[Diana]

Lean the slate up against the front glass, and put a towel or something over the glass right there. The fish will have a cave, and you can remove the towel to examine the fish.

Given the amount of problems with recurrence it seems your fish have a form of Ich that is being very persistent. I would keep up the meds for a lot longer than normal.

[Tay690]

Thought I'd throw an update in

I lost another baby loach 2 days ago...sad I know...he was growing really fast too

But since he died the other 4 loaches are actually eating again...it's weird
he must have been so sick that he was stressing the other fish also

the other 4 loaches are coming outside A LOT now...it's so nice to finally see them getting back to normal

They're eating all their frog food and basically anything I put into the tank at any given time

I stripped too many nitrates from the tank and nitrites showed up again...fish aren't stressed so far as I can see but I'm staying on top of it with constant small water changes

I don't think I really need to worry about the params in this situation to be honest...usually fish behaviour is a better sign

and since they're finally eating and schooling again...I will keep doing what I'm doing

I plan to drop the salt dosage slowly over the next 1.5 months or so starting on sunday...

It's been about 2 weeks as of sunday when the last visible ich spot dissapeared

is it too soon to start dropping the salt concentration? should I continue for a longer period of time due to the fact they keep getting re-infested?

thank you all for your help during this ordeal

I'm sure the casualties would've been much worse if I hadn't posted on this forum...and I will definitely use this as my primary choice for loach care / concern

Most important thing for me was that the big alpha loach didn't die...he's the pack leader...best loach I have and funniest personality...If he dropped I would've gotten rid of the rest of them honestly

Sincerely,
Taylor