ich.... just found my loachs had it

[sesuna]

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[smudgeman]

the guppy was found dead today.
It was a fancy guppy so I dont know if maybe the meds finally got to it.
loaches and other fish are fine it seems.

loaches still have spots but maybe less than before and no other fish have any.

[Diana]

Some fish are more sensitive than others to medicines or anything else. Yes, often the fanciest Guppies are delicate.

[smudgeman]

dont know what action to take has been a week one loach that was out when I turned on the light was covered head to tail with white spots.
The loach that was next to it had only 1 spot on it. Its been 7days I would think I should see more progress.

Should I change meds Im using to treat it?
Should I shorten time between doses?? Currently every 24hrs I treat after 25% water change.
Should I add salt?
Cannot get tank temp too high like I want because heater cannot handle the change in temp.
reading on petsmart site that has ich clear from jungle its $23 but 100 pills... supposed to treat in 24hrs though some Ive read said it can or does wipe out biofilter in process.
petco which is near petsmart has:
Mardel Freshwater CopperSafe

the jungle product fizzes and people have said to put it in a bucket of water to dissolve before adding to tank. If I got it I will probably do half dose as it said for scale-less fish to use half.
If I dose every 12 with rid ich + I have enough left for a few more days. So thats why Im asking about other products as I dont want to waste money buying same product again if its not going to help.

Limited funds right now or I would get another heater and treatment to go with it.
Though after reading up on malachite green I see that its diminished by light which I have been leaving on from morning to night over 12hrs. Maybe I should move onto treating and leaving all lights off and possibly covering all glass surfaces... IDK.
Thanks.

[plaalye]

I think Jungle ich cure is similar enough to rid-ich (read ingredients?), probably be wasting your money. I tried it once & didn't like it, changed to rid-ich which I do like. I know people who use ich guard, also by Jungle . It has different ingredients I believe. My last ich outbreak took better than two weeks to cure with rid-ich. I think the parasites are getting stronger??

There is another option that I can suggest. I have been using flubendazole for internal parasite treatment for a while but have recently used it sucessfully for ich. It's very easy on the tank & fish, will kill snails. It's not readily available but can be had here.
http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/FlubendazoleTreatment.pdf

See what Diana has to say? She really is the best at this!

[smudgeman]

well after reading up on rid ich's ingredients I see that malachide green should be kept out of light or it doesnt work so maybe Ill see progress by turning off lights.
also I see AP Pro Pond Quick Cure has same meds but marketed for pond use...... states its safe for aquariums and its a much more concentrated dose so I can use and have it last longer.
Prob is this bottles going to run out soon and I need to know what rought I should take. Keep treating same way and wait it out or try different approach.

Also the really bad loach thats covered all over is now missing the tip of his tail fin.

all other loachs and fish are doing good. Most of the other loachs dont have any spots and the one that does only has like 2. The one guy thats bad has like 20.

[smudgeman]

did water test...
ammonia 0
nitrite 0
nitrate 5ppm
ph 7.2

everything for water parameters are good just need to get these guys treated and healthy so maybe this one guy whose so bad can bounce back.

thanks.

[Diana]

http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/ich.shtml

http://www.novalek.com/kordon/articles/ich.htm

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa041

Here are 2 links that suggest a few ideas, and the 3rd link for more background info about Ich.
~There are more than one strain of organism that causes Ich.
~Not all these are killed with the same medication or dosing schedule.
~Some are so tolerant of warm tanks that this will not kill them. They tolerate higher temperatures than the fish, so keep the fish happy, do not stress them with temperature that is too high.

Given your results so far, it might be good to review the treatment to date, and be sure it is really the product that is not working, then either correct the treatment or change medications.

1) Clean filter, no activated carbon or other chemical media.
2) Plenty of gravel vacs. Many medications will attach to any sort of organic molecule, and therefore be lost for treatment purposes. The more gravel vacs you can do the more organics you are removing. Daily is best, every other day is pretty good, twice a week is better than nothing, but really try to do more.
3) No ultra violet. This can also deactivate medicines.
4) Do not use Amquel or Amquel Plus with dye based medicine. (Read the Amquel labels)

Basic timing:
1) Water change that emphasizes gravel vacs.
2) Dose @ 50% of the daily dose in AM.
3) Dose @ 50% of the daily dose in the PM.
4) Repeat daily.
5) Increase aeration so there is more oxygen in the water to help the fish that may have Ich in their gills.

By splitting the dose AM/PM you are maintaining a steadier dose in the tank at all times, without dosing such a large amount that might be toxic or too stressful to the fish if it was added all at once. This medicine gradually degrades through the day. The daily water change removes some of whatever is left so the dose does not get too high.

You will have to make the decision about switching meds or continuing with Rid Ich. Going with the same ingredients in a more economical package (pond size bottle) is a good idea. Treatment can last longer than any of the packages want to let you think.

[smudgeman]

ok so since the treatment bonds to organics I will remove the drift wood from the tank since its organic and does seem to break down a bit (its not a hard wood)
The article states that light from fixtures shouldnt affect the outcome much just direct sunlight.

so I will treat at night (water change at night too) then in the morning so the treatment last longer. I didnt know that it would be less effective say 12hrs after dose.
Since everything states that malachide green and formalin are the most used and best working treatments I will stick with that for now.
Maybe I will look into the pond size when it comes time for me to buy a new bottle.

I do:
- everytime I gravel vac clean the filter media in old tank water
- I removed the charcoal from the filter with a razor and shook it out.
- gravel vac tank and move ornaments out of the way to vac under them.
- I do have an extra airstone in there and can used a giant fizzing stone if need by but most of the fish are doing fine but the one. It seems like hes getting weaker.


so what Im going to do tonight is as follows:
remove drift wood
not gravel vac and treat tank at 4 but wait till around 10pm or 11 and do it.
I will do half of the usual dose (pm)
in morning maybe like 9am I will do the second half (am)

then wait a few days at least and see what progress if any is made.
I was reading up on the organic version of rid ich + but IDK if Im going to go that route. Maybe this will make more progress without the wood organics in the tank. Everything else is inert.

all of my equipment completely drys out between water changes.
wifey thinks Im nuts for spending this much time with the fish and keeping an eye on them but I just want to see them healthy again.
thanks.

[Diana]

I think that you are tackling this the right way. Good luck.

[smudgeman]

thanks.
just went to a local tropical fish store today that Ive never been to.
It was pretty interesting but they had "tiger loachs" that were really polka dot loachs. they look nothing like tiger loachs are supposed to lol.

I asked for more info on them and they said they are BOTIA which isnt very specific but whatever they looked real healthy and are $2 cheaper then where I got my other ones
Will prob get some when tanks better.
Ummmmmm cleaned power filter seems prefilter wasnt working so it was gunked up inside so everythings squeaky. I took out wood
will be a few days before I know if everythings working better since Im doing half treatments every 12hrs to spread out dose.

[Diana]

See the problems with common names for the fish?

Got a quarantine tank? Ask at the new store what the GH and KH of their water is, and set up the Q-tank to match. Then the new fish will have an easier transition to your home.
While the fish are in quarantine you can slowly alter the water to match the main tank. Fish can handle these sorts of changes better if they are done slowly, over several weeks.

[smudgeman]

well my quarantine tank is actually a 10gal tank since the 30 gal has sister in laws gold fish in it, and 20gal has the turtle in it.
Prob is the 10gal is full of fry right now.

oh yeah another thing how are fry appearing in my tank if Im treating it with these "harsh" chemicals???

because I just had one pop up lastnight so I netted it and put it in the quarantine. Wasnt going to for fear of ick spreading to quarantine but didnt want to doom it in the big tank with all of the fish swimming around.


as soon as the fry are grown enough they will go back in the tank with the other fish. Hopefully by then the ick will be done.

[smudgeman]

heres an update I ran out of rid-ick so I bought API quick cure for ponds.
It treats 8000 gallons in one bottle since the store didnt sell the little bottle of quick cure.
I did the math for my dosage since my wifey is a diabetic Im using a syringe to dose the small dose.

Only doing 5ml of it for 55gal..... so 2.5ml every 12hrs.
Going to follow directions and only gravel vac on 3rd day of treatment instead of everyday per rid ichs directions.

Im doing the scaleless fish doses for now and if no progress is made I will step up to regular dosage but wanted to take it slow.......


On a sad note I lost 1 loach found him in a barrel dead. He was terrible for about a week now.... Very pale and then the tip of his fin was missing so I had a feeling my little buddy was on the way out.

All of his siblings are very vibrant color and fins completely intact. They also have very few spots.

No other fish show spots but now the sword tails are starting to rub a little bit.

So hoping this is more affective.
Still no driftwood in tank. Just figured I would revert back to scaleless fish dose as this is a different concentration of treatment and a different brand.
Dont want to treat full strength and find a whole tank dead.

Thanks.

[Diana]

Another option when you have mixed fish in the tank is to separate the fish into 2 or more tanks according to what treatment they are more likely to handle well. Might be worth trying, if the treatment so far is not really working.

Swordtails thrive in hard, alkaline water and handle salt very well. A very strong salt and heat method is probably a very good way to treat them. They are also more tolerant of most Ich medicines.

Clown Loaches, of course prefer soft, acidic water, and salt and most Ich meds are questionable. Here is another way:
Bare bottom tank and daily 'gravel' vacs, and UV. Ich cannot hide in a bare bottom tank, so every vacuuming will remove a lot more than trying to vacuum around plants and inside tunnels and caves.

Of course it also means you need to have 2 tanks available to serve as hospital tanks.