Clarification on the 6-month wait on clowns

[mikev]

This is something that comes up all the time and I think I need to understand a bit better: what is the actual reason for waiting around 6 months before putting clowns into a new tank?

I'm very slowly moving toward a tank upgrade here (the new larger tank is in and eventually will even have water on it), but would like to be extremely careful, especially with the clowns. If really need to be, they can be left in the current tank for some time, but knowing the exact reasons may allow possibly to work around the limit without endangering the fish.

(6 months does seem a bit odd to me, since the cycle becomes fully stable in about three and I cannot see what kind of tank change may occur within the next three months...is it so long partially because people should get 6 month of experience before touching clowns?)

I'd further think that a cloned tank would not require such a long delay...but not knowing the rationale for the 6 month wait, I cannot be sure of this.

What also puzzles me a bit is the apparent lack of such requirements for other botia's... it appears that nobody would object against putting a -- for example -- yoyo into a tank that was recently cycled.


Something does not add up here.

[Emma Turner]

What also puzzles me a bit is the apparent lack of such requirements for other botia's... it appears that nobody would object against putting a -- for example -- yoyo into a tank that was recently cycled.

Er....I would!

6 months is a sensible time to wait until adding Botia, as the system is unlikely to be fully mature and stable until then. In a lot of cases, it also give new fishkeepers a chance to build up a reasonable level of experience prior to keeping them. The filter is only as mature as the amount of fish in the tank - after adding groups of fish you are likely to experience small spikes, so Botiine species certainly want to be the last fish added to any aquarium to avoid unnecessary exposure to these numerous spikes. We have certainly found that advising customers to wait for this period dramatically reduces the chances of the clowns succumbing to whitespot. Customers who have purchased Botia from other stores within a couple of months of set-up, have encountered all sorts of problems.

Emma

[mikev]

Thank you, Emma,

I have no problems with the idea that no one should be allowed near any Botia until they had some other fish for 6 months, and of course you don't want spikes (not that I fully understand why spikes connected to adding fish would be any less likely after 6 months than after 3).

(The surest way to avoid spikes would likely be to build a huge excess of settled cycle bacteria, running the tank for two months with ammonia, then for one week with dither --- just to make sure -- then add botias while your extra bacteria is still alive.)

But the question remains: if you know what you are doing is there a physical reason why 6 months matter?

You seem to be saying that random spikes (not connected to adding fish or antibiotics) are also more likely within the first 6 months. I know this is actually true (even had one), but is it really common?

Or, let me resstate: the 6-month advice to a new customer is most certainly a good one. But will you give the same advice to an old customer who is buying a larger tank from you?

Sorry for pushing on this: I'm trying to find the best strategy, and leaving the botia's in the current tanks has its own problems. So it would be great to know the exact risks and see if I can handle them.

[adampetherick]

In relation to this, if the main problem is due to ammonia/nitrate spkies wouldn't adding a bag or two of fluval ammonia remover and 1 or 2 bags of fluval nitrate remover to the filter the day before getting the Clowns solve this problem?

[mikev]

Not the best thing if they are actually "removers" -- you'll be hiding the fact that the bioload increased and only postponing the reckoning....so I stay away from ammochips and similar (but keep them handy in case there is really no other choice).

A slightly better idea will be to use the Prime conditioner -- it claims that it changes ammonia and nitrites to a non-toxic form which is still consumed by the bacteria. It certainly does great job in suppressing spikes.

Perhaps the best approach would be to find out just what are non-toxic ammonia and nitrites are and feed them to the tank prior to adding new fish -- to build up the bacteria without endangering the current fish. Someone who knows chemistry better than me may guess what the Seachem people are talking about.

[adampetherick]

Was thinking that in the fx5 they could go in the the basket after the biomax, that way they bacteria get all the ammonia/nitrates passed over them before it goes through the ammonia/nitrate removers and back into the main body of the water that way the bacteria get a chance to grow but still keeping the levels low in the tank?

[basher]

Perhaps the best approach would be to find out just what are non-toxic ammonia and nitrites are and feed them to the tank prior to adding new fish -- to build up the bacteria without endangering the current fish. Someone who knows chemistry better than me may guess what the Seachem people are talking about.

I can chime in on the non-toxic form of ammonia, that one is definitely ammonium or NH4+.

As for nitrites? Hmmm, that one lends me pause. I'm digging.

A few minutes later, welp, Novalek hasn't released their findings yet (because of "patent issues") and Seachem just plain says "they don't know how it works". This is in regards to nitrite and nitrate removal.

My guess, and you know the smell of them if you've ever used either of the two big hitters here (AmQuel+ and Prime), is that it has to do with the sulfates in them.

I'm not even going to attempt to explain it here, but you can Google for "sulfide nitrate reduction" and read at your own leisure..

In either case, its not a matter of feeding them to the tank. There is a chemical bonding process that occurs to "create" the non-toxic forms of NH3, NO2 and NO3 (ammonia, nitrite and nitrate respectively).

Gawd I hate chemistry...

[mikev]

No matter how you arrange things, bacteria will not grow beyond the currently available amount of food (ammonia), so you don't want to remove the food, you only want to make sure that the food will not hurt your fish.

But one more thought: it may be that the kinds of bacterial food Shari and Emma recommended for cycling can also be used a few days before adding more fish---need to check exactly what they contain and if they are safe for fish, they probably are.

[mikev]

Perhaps the best approach would be to find out just what are non-toxic ammonia and nitrites are and feed them to the tank prior to adding new fish -- to build up the bacteria without endangering the current fish. Someone who knows chemistry better than me may guess what the Seachem people are talking about.

I can chime in on the non-toxic form of ammonia, that one is definitely ammonium or NH4+.

As for nitrites? Hmmm, that one lends me pause. I'm digging.

Aha. Great. Where does one buy it? (I'd not mind experimenting trying to cycle a tank on it.)

As for the nitrites -- the other way of detoxing them is with salt (NaCl), maybe this is enough info to guess?

[basher]

Gotta hate it when you need to edit and someone replies to your already written post.

[chefkeith]

Alot of plant experts say that if you go planted with a new tank you can add fish immediately without worry of ammonia or nitrite spikes.

So I usually just add a few big clumps of Java Moss if I'm setting up a small quarantine tank for new fish. The java moss consumes ammonia quickly.

[basher]

As to NaCL and nitrite toxicity.. It does nothing to the nitrites and I'll let a more learned colleague of mine explain how it does its magic:

"Salt does have other limited uses. It temporarily reduces the effect of nitrite toxicity at 0.1-0.3 % -- the chloride ion counteracting the nitrogen blockage of oxygen uptake."

Shamelessly stolen from:

http://badmanstropicalfish.com/articles/article22.html

[mikev]

My guess, and you know the smell of them if you've ever used either of the two big hitters here (AmQuel+ and Prime), is that it has to do with the sulfates in them.

Quite likely so, nothing else stinks so bad....

In either case, its not a matter of feeding them to the tank. There is a chemical bonding process that occurs to "create" the non-toxic forms of NH3, NO2 and NO3 (ammonia, nitrite and nitrate respectively).

I fail to see how it matters if non-toxic forms are created in the tank or elsewhere and then added to the tank. So the process itself is not important, but the resulting compounds are -- if you can convince the bacteria that they are a valid food source.

PS. Thanks for the NaCl comment--indeed, this was not relevant.

[QueenDustBunny]

I used Amquel+ twice when I had an ammonia spike after going away for a quick weekend. The problem that results was giving a false positive on certain test reagents. So even though the level of ammonia was high, it was the harmless form, ammonium. It took 2 weeks of 20% water changes 2x week to actually get a zero reading again. Hope this helps.

[basher]

I fail to see how it matters if non-toxic forms are created in the tank or elsewhere and then added to the tank. So the process itself is not important, but the resulting compounds are -- if you can convince the bacteria that they are a valid food source.

NH4+ is readily consumed by both lower and higher forms of life. In fact, plants prefer it over other sources of nitrogen.

But you are correct, its the end result you are trying to acheive. As an experiment you could try fishless cycling with NH3 and just plain AmQuel (no +/plus) as it will only break the chloramine bond and bind NH3 over to NH4. Just make sure you avoid test kits with Nessler reagents, you'll get false positives from them (they don't give a true 'free' ammonia reading).

Once you have built a sufficient colony of bacteria to produce nitrites in quantity, you could then switch over to AmQuel+ and continue testing to see just what results can be obtained.

Standard disclaimer applies: I'm not trying to push Kordon's products here, I am just familiar with how they work because they are what I use.