loaches in an angel community

[scbatiste]

Hi I'm new to the site and had a few quick questions about clown loaches. 1.Can a clown loach be kept in a 45 gallon tank, and if so how many.
2.can loaches be kept on small to medium sized peables.
3.what are the loaches water parameter requirements.
4.Can clown loaches be kept in a medium planted with 2 angel fish, 2 german blue rams, and 9 rummynose tetras.
Thanks a lot your site is very informative

[crazie.eddie]

Clown loaches can reach about 12" or so, but that is out in the wild. I haven't known any clowns reaching that size in captivity. They do grow at a slow rate.

Clown loaches do better in small groups.

1. Yes, a small group of 5.
2. Yes, even smaller, like sand.
3. If you have angels, rams, and tetras already in the tank doing well, then the clown loaches will be fine in the same water conditions. They will adapt.
4. Yes

[shari2]

Clown loaches can reach about 12" or so, but that is out in the wild. I haven't known any clowns reaching that size in captivity.

Here is one:
http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php?t=1861

And I know of at least one other. They will get that big if well cared for.

Meanwhile, in a 45 I'd say you could keep a group of 3-5, but would have to plan on upgrading within a year to a much larger tank. they grow quite quickly for the first year or two, and the 'slow' growth rate doesn't really apply in the first year or so at all.

Loaches like similar water to angelfish, chemically, but prefer a MUCH higher flow rate than angels would be comfortable in. Will they be ok with angels? Yes, but they really will prefer more water movement than the angels would like. I'm also not too sure about the rams as tank mates. Clowns are very curious fish...in a larger tank there is space for individuals and pairs to stake out territories. In a 45, not really as much. But maybe someone else can address this issue as I've never kept rams with my clowns, personally.

[crazie.eddie]

The rams would be fine. Loaches are very nervous that the rams could easily chase them away. Unfortunately, it would be a different outcome if the rams were a mated pair. Then they may injure or kill any fish that come near their breeding area.

The angels will be fine in current. They come from a river with current. I had my clown loaches in my 55 gallon tank before with LOTS of current from a n Eheim Pro II 2128 (rated for 150 gallon tank) and 2 powerheads (Powersweem 228) and I added 2 angels (size of about a quarter) in there. Both angels grew to be healthy angels.

[shari2]

what river? You mean to tell me that all the breeders I know are mistaken? Could be, I suppose...

[scbatiste]

Thanks for all the advice, but I have 1 last question you said that I could keep up to 5 loaches in my 45, now when they reach full size will they still be able to surive in the 45, cause I don't plan on upgrading to a bigger tank any time soon beacause I'm only 17 and can't afford to buy a larger tank.
Thanks your advice is greatly appreciated.

[mikev]

You'll need to upgrade to a bigger tank in -- say -- a couple of years. If you don't expect being able to do this, it is best not to go with clowns, but choose a species that will do fine in 45g. If you go with clowns, when they do grow, it would be very painful to have to part with them, so don't set up yourself for this. And you most certainly cannot keep large clowns in a 45g tank.

There are several other loach species that don't grow as large as clowns and are also exciting to keep. B.Striata (Zebra Loach) may be a particularly good choice. B.Kubotai would have been a choice too, but they seem to have problems with Angels.

hth.

[scbatiste]

Ok thanks for the info and suggestion, but now I have another question, do zebra loaches perfer to be kept in group our alone, if they perfer to be kept in groups how many shoul I get for my planred 45 gallon aquarium. And also what is the mininum tank size to keep a group of adult clown loaches in.

[mikev]

The general rule for peaceful loaches is 5+; with a 45g 5 striatas (or Kubotais) should be ok, possibly a bit more, as long as you don't overcrowd. You can also add some kuhlis which are a totally different type of loach.

As for the adult clowns: you don't want to know, really. I'm hoping that 125 will do, and it probably would not.

[sully]

angels are a river fish. amazon is one of thm,.. current there approximates 3mph. thye hang out in many of the same areas you will find severums, uuarus and discus--the slower moving parts. under roots, in the plants lining the shore--the slower parts of the rivers.

The angel is simply not built to handle high current environments for sustained periods. Look at the body shape and fin structure--They are not "strong swimmers"

I get around some of that issue in a 75 gallon planted tank with power heads. I have a head that pumps 300 gallons per hour. the return is vry small. It has a lot of force as water is returned to the tank. The force dissipates slowly though as it gets bounced off the side glass and turns the corner and begines to move down the length of the tank. Feeding time clearly shows the direct current and tumbling pattern achieved if i drop flakes in that end of the tank.

3 wee clowns and some sids love the end of the tank with the power head. they swim in the current for hours--almost suspended in a single spot of the water column.

a pair of angels avoid the powerhead induced flow like it is the plague. they may chase another tank mate through it--will never spend any length of time in it. they simply do not like it.

oh about those sids . that is their permanent home. the clowns- they be wee things--just growing out a bit until they can join some others in a 225.

With only a 45 i would not get clowns at all. they meed at least a 6' tank-- imo.

[shari2]

Yeah, what sully said.
If you don't see a larger tank in your future, then going for a smaller loach species would be best.

225...~sigh~ someday...

[crazie.eddie]

what river? You mean to tell me that all the breeders I know are mistaken? Could be, I suppose...

Maybe..

http://www.angelswest.com/angelfish_origin.htm

Angelfish are found in the Amazon, Rio Negro, Orinico and Ocho Rios rivers and tributaries.

[shari2]

maybe not.

From your link:

They come from the slow moving, almost stagnant pools created during the dry seasons. During the rainy season the rivers swell and leave their banks flooding the forest areas. The water often comes to the top of the trees. During the dry season the water slowly recedes and creates pockets of water outside of the river bank. These are often the spots where hundreds of angelfish can be found in small drying pools.

[sully]

lol..rivers be cool--they be in them--they just be in slow moving rivers--and even slower moving parts of them.. they will also be found in the other areas shari highlighted for you.

crazy, part of finding info re fish is finding accurate info from reliable sites. looks like you have. the other aspect is understanding what you are looking at when you examing the anatomy of a fish. I know i learned an incredible amount from Martin in a chat or two when he was discussing hillstream anatomy. the reason they can live where they live is their anatomy.

Go look at a fish that is well known to be a powerful swimmer--a tin foil barb. now go compare only the caudal fin to the caudal fin of an angel. huge difference. The Tin Foils tail will not tear under pressure. Under high water flow conditions. The diaphanous material that angels call a caudal fin will shred (much like the dorsal and anal fins. made for a different speed of navigation.

Compare the body shape and musculature of strong swimmers to that of an angel--totally different. Can they dart about quickly--of course. They just do not have what it takes to survive well in high current situations. Exposing them to that situation will overtime negative impact the immune response and over all health and fecundity of the fish.

Now go look at the pelvics--what value would that piece of anatomy be in fast moving water?

hopefully i typed better this time--lol.

[crazie.eddie]

During the rainy season the rivers swell and leave their banks flooding the forest areas. The water often comes to the top of the trees. During the dry season the water slowly recedes and creates pockets of water outside of the river bank.

So they swim during the currents.

Well, I've dealt with angel breeders. I've kept 2 angels, when they were about the size of a quarter in a 55 gallon tank running Eheim Pro II 2128, which is rated for a 150 gallon, which was several years ago. I also have 2 Powersweep 228s in the same tank creating LOTS of current. The angels are now about 5" or so.

Here's a vid of my angels of them challenging each other. It sure doesn't look like they have an problems with the current.



They are now in a 125 gallon tank, with Eheim 2128 and a FilStar XP3 (rated for 150 gallon tank) and 2 Powersweep powerheads. In the same tank are discus, along with the loaches. If anyone cares to see the "strong" currents being a problem, I will take a video of them.

EDIT: Here's a video of all the fish in my 125 gallon tank. Doesn't look like any fish are having problems with my river current design.


Here's an old pic of the 125 gallon tank on how I setup the currents...