Hello all, this is my first post here on the Loaches Online Forums!
I have 5 loaches, in a 55 gallon tank. They're just over a year old and until now have always been very healthy. I use a Fluval 403 to filter the tank with carbon and other materials to polish the water.
I did a water change of about 15-20 gallons yesterday. I realize this is usually too great of an amount for a water change, but it was out of necessity since the tank water level had gone down quite a bit.
I added the anti-Chlrorine/Chlorimine stuff in the bucket as I refilled the tank. I was careful to make sure the water temp was very close to the tank temp (83 degrees). I always tend to overuse the anti chlorine stuff for obvious reasons...
The fish ate just fine last night... however today, even after being awake for several hours, the loaches and all other fish in the tank are uninterested in food and seem to be breathing very quickly.. maybe i just don't remember how fast they breathe, but it sure seems to be fast. Also, it seems their mouths are protruded.. poking out somewhat, like their mouths are stuck open. It is a subtle difference, but noticeable for me. WHAT DID I DO TO MY LITTLE GUYS?
has anybody seen this same thing before?
water change leads to lack of appetite and quick breathing
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Evaporation makes the TDS (total dissolve solids) of the water higher. Water changes make the TDS get lower. Rapid Changes in TDS can be very harmful to fish and cause Osmotic Shock.
Example- if your 55g tank's TDS is 240ppm and tap water is 100pm, and you do a 20g water change, which is about 50%, the TDS would drop to about 180ppm. That's a 60 ppm drop. Some fish, such as clown loaches, will get stressed from such a sudden drop.
If the TDS drop was great enough you could of killed your fish. TDS drops can damage the gills, kidney, swimbladder, and spleen. The TDS drop causes internal pressure to these organss. Dropsy is often a symptom of TDS shock.
It's best to do frequent small water changes if you don't know the tanks TDS. If you do know the tanks TDS and it is nearly the same as the source water, then 100% water changes can be done without doing harm to the fish.
Example- if your 55g tank's TDS is 240ppm and tap water is 100pm, and you do a 20g water change, which is about 50%, the TDS would drop to about 180ppm. That's a 60 ppm drop. Some fish, such as clown loaches, will get stressed from such a sudden drop.
If the TDS drop was great enough you could of killed your fish. TDS drops can damage the gills, kidney, swimbladder, and spleen. The TDS drop causes internal pressure to these organss. Dropsy is often a symptom of TDS shock.
It's best to do frequent small water changes if you don't know the tanks TDS. If you do know the tanks TDS and it is nearly the same as the source water, then 100% water changes can be done without doing harm to the fish.
Jungle - Start Right
I used "Start Right" made by Jungle. It says on the bottle, "Complete water conditioner for freshwater... removes chlorine & chloramine.
As far as the particle count in the water is concerned... why didn't the fish show any signs of stress last night after the water was changed? It took them 12 hours to stress out...hmm...
What can I do to fix this... I added just a tad of aquarium salt (I guess that's supposed to be more comfortable for them)..
As far as the particle count in the water is concerned... why didn't the fish show any signs of stress last night after the water was changed? It took them 12 hours to stress out...hmm...
What can I do to fix this... I added just a tad of aquarium salt (I guess that's supposed to be more comfortable for them)..
I don't know what flashing is.. but they aren't "flicking" if that is synonymous.newshound wrote:any flashing?
I did notice that the loaches skin looks kind of "old" now though.. it looks a little more wrinkly and a little "dirty." Sorry this is a poor description, but something is definitely up w/ them...
Salt almost certainly made it worse, it is just another way to stress the fish.
Regardless of the cause of the problem (chefkeith may well be right, but it also may be some nasty stuff in the tap which occassionally happens in some areas -- I've seen posts about dead loaches next day after a smaller water change), adding more O2 should help.
Osmotic shock, just like the failure to acclimate properly, does not work instantly, next day seems right.
Regardless of the cause of the problem (chefkeith may well be right, but it also may be some nasty stuff in the tap which occassionally happens in some areas -- I've seen posts about dead loaches next day after a smaller water change), adding more O2 should help.
Osmotic shock, just like the failure to acclimate properly, does not work instantly, next day seems right.
What can I do to help fix this? Or better put, what should I not do to make it worse?mikev wrote:Salt almost certainly made it worse, it is just another way to stress the fish.
Regardless of the cause of the problem (chefkeith may well be right, but it also may be some nasty stuff in the tap which occassionally happens in some areas -- I've seen posts about dead loaches next day after a smaller water change), adding more O2 should help.
Osmotic shock, just like the failure to acclimate properly, does not work instantly, next day seems right.
Their poor little mouths are extended...
Add oxygen. This never hurts and usually helps, regardless of the problem.
Check the obvious parameters first (ammonia/nitrites/nitrates/ph). Post them.
Next, get the hardness measurements for your tank and the tap water. If they are seriously different, then chefkeith is correct. If it is an osmotic shock, all you can do is to wait and hope, I think. And most certainly do not do anything else to the water. Check the pH for the tank and tap too, it can be a pH shock also.
However, if the parameters are similar, it is not an osmotic shock, but possibly some junk in your water. In this case, continuing water changes with clean water (bottled R/O or distilled) should help.
Check the obvious parameters first (ammonia/nitrites/nitrates/ph). Post them.
Next, get the hardness measurements for your tank and the tap water. If they are seriously different, then chefkeith is correct. If it is an osmotic shock, all you can do is to wait and hope, I think. And most certainly do not do anything else to the water. Check the pH for the tank and tap too, it can be a pH shock also.
However, if the parameters are similar, it is not an osmotic shock, but possibly some junk in your water. In this case, continuing water changes with clean water (bottled R/O or distilled) should help.
Salt will increase the TDS dramatically. If salt is added, future water changes need to be small. 1 tsp of salt will increase the TDS of a gallon of water by about 2500 ppm.
Here's an article on TDS shock-
http://aquafacts.net/wiki/index.php/Osmotic_shock
PH shock is not the correct term. Fish cannot measure pH.
Sorry, I've got to go. I'll be back late Tonight to further discuss this.
Here's an article on TDS shock-
http://aquafacts.net/wiki/index.php/Osmotic_shock
PH shock is not the correct term. Fish cannot measure pH.
Sorry, I've got to go. I'll be back late Tonight to further discuss this.
UPDATE
After having the bubbles on high, and lights off for a few hours, I came home this evening to find all of the loaches at the surface of the water breathing quickly. Almost as if they're trying to get close to the air or something... I have no idea what to do.... temp is stable..... any input, these guys are going to die soon I think....... things are getting worse.
nitrates!!!!
Somehow my nitrates are off the scale.. they're at 200 on my mardel test strip, everything else is within moderate levels. How does one bring down nitrate levels (maybe the high nitrates aren't causing this though)....
I really don't want to do more water changes... in case it is osmotic shock..
help!
I really don't want to do more water changes... in case it is osmotic shock..
help!
A better way to increase airation:
If you have a HOB filter, lower the water level.
Any other technique that creates waves on the water surface will increase O2 too.
NitrAtes at 200 would do this, even without an osmotic shock.
Check your tap water for nitrates. If it is clean, start making water changes, but SLOWLY, to bring the nitrates down.
---
PS. With nitrAtes at this level you probably have nitrItes too, if so, they are the main danger. If you see non-zero nitrites, get PRIME asap.
If you have a HOB filter, lower the water level.
Any other technique that creates waves on the water surface will increase O2 too.
NitrAtes at 200 would do this, even without an osmotic shock.
Check your tap water for nitrates. If it is clean, start making water changes, but SLOWLY, to bring the nitrates down.
Can you be more specific? Moderate levels for ammonia and nitrites are 0, anything above it is very dangerous.everything else is within moderate levels
---
PS. With nitrAtes at this level you probably have nitrItes too, if so, they are the main danger. If you see non-zero nitrites, get PRIME asap.
ammonia was next to 0.. nitrite was .5 that seemed relatively low on the nitrite scale so I assumed it was "ok" compared to the 200 nitrate...
I just did a 10 gallon water change..... and increased the bubbles/waves even more... as of now, the fish seem to be somewhat more lively (although still at the top of the tank gasping for "air")
anything else I can immediately do?
I just did a 10 gallon water change..... and increased the bubbles/waves even more... as of now, the fish seem to be somewhat more lively (although still at the top of the tank gasping for "air")
anything else I can immediately do?
nitrIte is a POISON, nitrAte is an irritant. 0.5 nitrIte is pretty bad.
(cf. sarin vs smoke inhalation).
Do you have PRIME? (it is a detox for nitrItes)? If the fish survives till morning, get it asap. Meanwhile, continue SLOW water changes, keep O2 (water surface motion) as high as you can.
I hope you did check that the tap water is clean!!!
Incidentally, this is one of the rare cases where adding salt was a good move. But don't add any more.
(cf. sarin vs smoke inhalation).
Do you have PRIME? (it is a detox for nitrItes)? If the fish survives till morning, get it asap. Meanwhile, continue SLOW water changes, keep O2 (water surface motion) as high as you can.
I hope you did check that the tap water is clean!!!
Incidentally, this is one of the rare cases where adding salt was a good move. But don't add any more.
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