Two foot river tank

[TammyLiz]

As of today I've finally accepted the fact that I've lost the filter on my 20 gallon tank. I cannot get it to stop leaking. Dimensions are 24x12x16 inches. Really the same footprint as a 15 gallon, but its taller. Sand substrate, heated to 75 degrees, no filtration, and 6 very bored diamond tetras. Whenever I try to do a fix and reinstall the filter, they get all excited and play in the current. Otherwise, they mainly just hover around doing nothing. Theres not much in the way of decorations because I haven't even gotten hardware straight. Something has got to be done with this tank.

So I was thinking if I'm going to have to redo filtration entirely, why not go with a river tank setup? I have some PVC pipe laying around. I read Martins articles but I have some questions (hi Martin, help me out here)

First question would be in general what kind of results am I going to come out with in such a small tank? The articles say a 3 foot tank is really the smallest you should do this in because of backflow on the opposite glass. How set in stone is that?

Would this be a good powerhead for a 24 inch tank?
http://www.amazon.com/Marineland-Pengui ... ome-garden
Its 300gph. Because of my credit card points I could get it including shipping for $2. (Human baby is coming--we don't have money to spend on fish hardware right now) I don't want to end up with a piece of junk, though. I can use my points on something else if its no good. I'm not sure if its OK to have just one powerhead?

About sponges, is just one of those OK, too? I was thinking to put the powerhead in one corner, and the sponge on the opposite corner, at a diagonal. Then there would be a greater distance between the two, even though it would be minimal. Bad idea? Would it help or hurt as far as current hits the glass?

And the pvc. I have some 1/2 inch sitting around here already leftover from a filter I made for another tank. Is that big enough for this? Or should I go with the 3/4 inch Martin uses?

What other filtration would I need? I'm guessing not a whole lot because the sponge(s) would work as biological media and probably collect mulm that I could then squeeze out when I do water changes. Am I wrong?

And last thing, I don't understand the part about the powerhead being further under the water creating the need to use..something...to make it work.

Thanks in advance. Hopefully someone who has done this can help me avoid having to redo half of it. Or tell me it won't work in this tank.

--Tammy

[Martin Thoene]

Ok, here's the brand new, real deal detailed look at things:

http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php?t=2965

Yes you can have one powerhead, one intake sponge. The idea is tweakable, adjustable, modifyable to your tank.

2 foot, while not being ideal because of the bounce-back in that short length will still give lots of water movement, so give decent conditions for Hillstreams, but not really much of a 1-way current.

330 gph divided by 20 = 16.5 times/hr turnover. That's a lot! You could probably come down to a 200 - 250 gph powerhead and still get really adequate turnover.

Go to 3/4" pipe because 1/2" won't flow enough water. On that size tank you'll probably want a single sponge intake because it will impede on decor space with 2. You won't have huge stock, so the sponge should be adequate. You could always add a HOB filter when funds allow. An Aquaclear 150 or 200 (they have a different designation now) could be added once funds allow.

Now the air thing. I run the powerheads low down to get the current where the fish mainly live. Powerheads were originally designed as replacements to power formerly airlift operated uplifts on undergravel filters. They just sat on top of the uplift tube, fairly close to the water surface. The air intake works passively, but when you drop the powerhead deeper, the air suction will not work. Therefore I put a small air pump on it as a positive feed.

Martin.

[TammyLiz]

I found a powerhead thats rated at 230gph. Maxi-jet brand:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00025 ... TJCK0ZMQ8U
Does that one look good? I have no experience with the brand but it would be completely free with my credit card points.

I now understand your point about the air pump but it doesn't make me happy. The tank is in my room and I have had some bad experiences with air pumps. Visualize a teenage girl up in the middle of the night, sleepily yet frantically trying to get a pump to shut up. Wrapping rubber bands around it, or covering it with a t-shirt, putting something heavy on top, moving it here or there, onto different surfaces, turning it upside down or whatever it takes to get the stupid thing to stop buzzing like an alarm! They would vibrate so much they'd start to walk off the shelf, or move over and bump into some other object inside the cabinet. I'm not a heavy sleeper and I can't stand it. I don't ever want to be awakened by that "whaaaaaaawhawhawawaaaaazzzzzzzzwwaaaa" sound again! I banished them from my room years ago. I literally have three or four of them sitting around that I could use. Still, if I could buy a new one that would actually be quiet (they all have something about being quiet in the name but don't believe it) then I would do it. Is there one that is actually quiet? The ones I have were quiet and just hummed when brand new but within a month or two would start with the noise.

Man, I've been wordy lately.

[USFMarine]

I found a powerhead thats rated at 230gph. Maxi-jet brand:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00025 ... TJCK0ZMQ8U
Does that one look good? I have no experience with the brand but it would be completely free with my credit card points.

I just bought this same power head today from my LFS for $20. It's up and running flawlessly. Good design and smooth operation. The attachments are all plasticky but sturdy... just don't force anything while putting it together. It'll do great for a tank your size I think. Check out my 2 vidoes, you'll see the Maxi-Jet 900 in the top right corner. The passive air bubbles w/ valve work perfectly.

http://www.marshallmoorheadphotography.com/3.mpg
http://www.marshallmoorheadphotography.com/4.mpg

It's as easy as submerging it and plugging it in.. works great and tons of water movement!

[Martin Thoene]

Good info USFMarine......that's the advantage of being here. Often someone else has the piece of equipment you're interested in.

I know exactly what you're talking about TammyLiz with the buzz. they're a PITA and it's an almost inevitable flaw in the concept of a diaphragm pump that makes them vibrate.

The air feature works on basic carburettor principle. Cause a restriction in a tube and the water speeds up as it goes through it. This causes a pressure drop and in a carburettor sucks in gas, or in this case sucks in air via the tubing. The suction effect is not infinite and as you lower the powerhead downwards it eventually meets a point where water pressure and atmospheric pressure equalize. Go past that point and it won't suck in air.

In this 24" tank, there's not going to be much of a 1-way flow. You'll be getting more of a tumbling action, but more of it than with a small powerhead. So the fish will be getting lots of water movement. So maybe you don't need the powerhead so low in the water.

Experiment. Hook it all up and fill the aquarium with water. Stick the powerhead in and switch on. Open up the adjustable air intake. Most manufacturers seem to have something similar. Once the air is running, gradually lower the powerhead down until the air stops working. Now raise it slowly. Once the air starts to run reliably, measure the distance from the tank bottom to the bottom of the powerhead as it will sit in your vertical pipe from the River-Tank manifold. Cut your piece of manifold tubing so that the powerhead will end up at that height once it's all set up.

That powerhead seems to have quite a long water intake cone on it, so it might not end up super low in the tank anyways.

Martin.

[TammyLiz]

I was really wishing I could spend the money to get a 3 ft. tank to do this with with instead. I already have a stand that looks great with my bedroom furniture. I decided against spending the money, and then today, the sidewall in my tire popped, and the lug nut was crossthreaded. My husband came to help while on his lunch break and tried so hard to get those crossthreaded nuts off he actually broke one of the bolts off and couldn't get the other one at all. We've spent more on towing and repair than I would have if I'd bought the tank and light.

[angelfish83]

If the noise of airpumps bothers you, the RENA pumps are absurdly quiet. They are slightly less powerful for the money (so a $15 pump of RENA's will put out a little less bubbling than a $15 Tetra) but super super silent. And they have good rubber leggies so they can't vibrate around. Especially if you put it inside of the stand or a cabinet, to my ears its no louder than the motor on an aquaclear filter.

[mikev]

Do you have a suggestion on how to keep small airpumps from vibrating?

This is beginning to really irritate me: there are five tanks that surround me right now, some with more than one airpump attached, and those things tend to move around making ugly sounds.... (all Tetra's of different sizes).

-----

Tammy:

My two main hillstream tanks are 29's (2.5ft): barely enough for a flow. 29's happen because I wanted some decent dither.
Too late for me, but if I were to start again, I'd go with 30's, and very little or no dither.

Smaller/shorter tanks seem to work fine for species that need some flow, but not a lot of it. Non-loach example is the Hara's. Among the loaches, Zippers seem to enjoy their 10g quarantine (only a small powerhead there), I suspect that schisturas or the new rosy loaches will do perfectly in such environment. But not the "real" hillstreams.

For instance, Sewellia's survived in 10g/powerhead tank for two weeks just fine, but i never saw them gliding. In the proper 29g they started.

Hope this is of some use.

[Jim Powers]

I keep most of my airpumps on towels or sponges. This allows air flow to the filter and reduces vibration.
I also keep several airpumps in a closet with the airtubes running out the corner to the tanks. That really helps noise levels.
Some of the quietest pumps I have ever had are my old Whispers. They are about five years old and just keep plugging along without any problems. The Tetratec Deep pumps I have are noise and of poor quality. I just use them now for backup.
I also recently purchased the Marineland AirMaster 3000 pump and it is great. Very quiet and has adjustable controls. Unfortunatley it has been discontinued so you can probably get them for a decent price.
The NEW Whispers are good pumps too. They have those odd looking "legs" that raise them up off the ground and reduce vibration.

[angelfish83]

Do you have a suggestion on how to keep small airpumps from vibrating?

Well what I did with my five year old tetra AP50, still on its original diaphragm and sounding horrid, was take a sock, tie a very very tight solid knot in it to make a ball, then bury that into the squishy rubber underside. Most airpumps undersides are sort of pliable rubber. I found that compressing that rubber into the airpump in the middle, using the sock knot worked. I then tie the sock around the airpump to secure the 'quietness knot' where I want it, and wrap the whole assembly in additional socks. So basically I have what looks like a ball of interwoven sock with air and power lines coming out of it. No noise though above my aquaclears. I cant hear it unless I turn the aquaclears off.

[Martin Thoene]

If hardly seen.....usually hear it before i see it.....an air pump in recent years that was worth a second look. I've got a box full of small air pumps and even after a full service they have barely enough oomph to blow through an airstone. And they're NOISEY.

Including Renas angelfish83.
Back in the day, Rena used to make this pump called the 301, but not this one: http://www.merrifieldgardencenter.com/p ... arent=1978

The old 301 was a vertical aluminium cylinder about 3" or so across and about 7" or 8" high. It had a black plastic end moulding top and bottom with another on top that included a large, black knobbed flow control, intake filter and outlet nozzle. Top and bottom mouldings were connected by 4 metal rods with threaded ends with nuts on them. Beautiful piece of engineering and very powerful, but quiet at the same time. I had two that ran faultlessly for years.

The only other type of pump I've ever found to be quiet, but I've never owned, was a twin piston pump that was available in England many years ago. An electric motor drove a flywheel that had two eccentrically mounted cylinders attached to it. Kind of like the reverse idea of a steam locomotove drive system. Valving in the cylinders made air get pumped as the pistons moved back and forth. They used to be quite expensive due to the engineering involved.

Diaphragm pumps work because of vibration and it's there biggest drawback in a domestic environment. One option if it fits your location is to house the pump outdoors in a covered box and pump air back into the house. At least the noisey bit is outside then.

Martin.

[TammyLiz]

mikev wrote:

For instance, Sewellia's survived in 10g/powerhead tank for two weeks just fine, but i never saw them gliding. In the proper 29g they started.

Mikev, this is a little helpful, but I'm still guessing on whether they'd feel comfortable. My tank is a little past halfway to the 29 from the 10. It has 88 sq in. extra floor space compared to the 10 gallon, and the 29 would have an additional 72 sq in over that.

mikev wrote:

Smaller/shorter tanks seem to work fine for species that need some flow, but not a lot of it. Non-loach example is the Hara's. Among the loaches, Zippers seem to enjoy their 10g quarantine (only a small powerhead there), I suspect that schisturas or the new rosy loaches will do perfectly in such environment. But not the "real" hillstreams.

I don't know...I was thinking the opposite but of course I've never kept either schistura/zipper loaches or what you refer to as "real" hillstreams. I was thinking gastros and the like, being half the size and vegetarian, would be less likely to get into spats with each other over the lack of space. The rosy loaches are something I was considering since they seem like they'll probably stay smaller. However, the description of their behavior makes me think they may not be too excited about the current. I'd love some beufortia or something like that but they may be too big. I'm so undecided I haven't even ordered the powerhead yet for fear I'll decide on something that doesn't want that much current.

My problem is that I have a huge wish list and I know I'll never be able to own them all at once so I want to choose carefully. Additionally, I do not want to choose something that I don't feel will be happy in the environment I'm providing. I love seeing happy fish. To complicate things further, I don't want a species-only tank--I want dither. So I'm thinking something smaller would be best to avoid overstocking. Some tiny danios would be great. How about some Gastromyzon occelatus?

[Martin Thoene]

Don't ever get fooled into thinking that being primarily vegetarian equates to being mellow and laid-back. Gastromyzon are VERY territorial. In my 4 foot 65 it's battles almost 24/7, in-species and inter-species. It's just how they are.

Martin.

[TammyLiz]

Don't ever get fooled into thinking that being primarily vegetarian equates to being mellow and laid-back. Gastromyzon are VERY territorial. In my 4 foot 65 it's battles almost 24/7, in-species and inter-species. It's just how they are.

Martin.

Thanks Martin. I was thinking a couple of them would be OK in there. I realized they were territorial but didn't know how much. If I had two or three in there, along with some danios, would you predict they would contstantly feel their territory was being invaded? I was planning on setting up some rockwork to break up line of sight but I know that only marginally helps.

On the other hand, those rosy loaches are very cute, too, and seem to have a lot of personality. Seeing as they swim higher in the water column I thought they might harrass little danios. What do you think?

Those two things are probably my first choices. Well, that and a couple species of microrasbora but from what someone else has told me they get eaten by pretty much anything.

[mikev]

mikev wrote:

For instance, Sewellia's survived in 10g/powerhead tank for two weeks just fine, but i never saw them gliding. In the proper 29g they started.

Mikev, this is a little helpful, but I'm still guessing on whether they'd feel comfortable. My tank is a little past halfway to the 29 from the 10. It has 88 sq in. extra floor space compared to the 10 gallon, and the 29 would have an additional 72 sq in over that.

I was trying to say that it depends on what "they" are.

You got two factors: limited floor area and weak current. So, if you are sticking with 20H, ideally you are looking for the species that (1) don't need all that much current (2) are not territorial.

I've mentioned Hara and Zippers as examples of such species.... Neither is territorial, and they need *some* current -- basically some water motion, not a lot of it. Schisturas are iffier because some species are very territorial. Rosies is really a guess, we don't know much about them yet.

I don't know...I was thinking the opposite but of course I've never kept either schistura/zipper loaches or what you refer to as "real" hillstreams. I was thinking gastros and the like, being half the size and vegetarian, would be less likely to get into spats with each other over the lack of space.

Oh, they do. I don't think they are really vegetarian either: I've seen them eating bloodworms and fighting with each other and schisturas over "Carnivoir wafers".

I'd love some beufortia or something like that but they may be too big.

I personally like Beaufortia's more than Gastro's. The behavior is more interesting and -- what may matter for the first time hillstream experience -- they are hardier.

My four fight daily and terrorize Sewellias in spare time.

I'm so undecided I haven't even ordered the powerhead yet for fear I'll decide on something that doesn't want that much current.

I think with any of the species mentioned, you would need a powerhead.

Some tiny danios would be great. How about some Gastromyzon occelatus?

Gastros are pretty much all the same .... If you do want one species only, I'd consider G.cteno first: the blue tails they have is imho one of the best things about Gastros.

I'd personally not mix two species unless you have enough of each.

Danios and Gastros mix fine. Since Gastros are not likely to breed, you don't have THAT concern. One of my 29's is currently populated by Gastros/Schisturas/Chorpae/Hikari. Again, a personal biased opinion: I think WCMM's or Rasboras are actually a better dither (this is what I have in the other 29g, with Beaufortias and Sewellias).