SKINNY DISEASE

[mikev]

For mikev:

The very term "Skinny Disease" is improper, it is a symptom.

The term "Skinny Disease" has been around in the hobby for a long time. Used to describe an illness that presents with fish who become progressively skinny.

.... and leading to the constant confusions since people assume that this is one disease....

In more academic circles the term "Chronic Wasting Syndrome" is employed. It does better address the fact that it is a concatenation of issues that leads fish to look skinny.

Concur. CWS is indeed a better term, and it should be used instead of "Skinny disease" when possible.

[JWhipple]

I found out today how bad it was.... I came home and he was dead in the tank.

I grabbed a few pictures with my girlfriend's camera - I'll pull them off tomorrow and upload. Hopefully they will come out ok.

My point is not to be morbid, but to show others how bad it can be.

[Martin Thoene]

Mike, the term "Skinny Disease" is a colloquialism that is long-term accepted as a description for this syndrome. It is not meant to be a scientifically accurate diagnosis just as "Loach-dancing" is not a group of loaches doing a square-dance with a caller (or clicker). However, use e ither term and people who've seen it will know what you're talking about if they keep loaches.

"Skinny Disease" adequately describes the visual signs, which is all most laymen have to go on. It is a visual impression of the condition that anyone with reasonably good eyesight and skills of observation can differentiate from a healthy specimen.

In literature....I'm sure in Shari's yet to be written article....and in scientific research it will be called something else. Certainly in "The Book" we refer to it as "Chronic Wasting Syndrome" because you have to use more authoritative terms in such a medium.

Here, we can adequately use the term because we can be authoritative without resorting to anal retention. Worth remembering.

Martin.

[shazam26]

just as "Loach-dancing" is not a group of loaches doing a square-dance

...is it wrong how long I laughed at this?


All the info on skinny disease is great to know, especially beforehand.
However, I'm terrified of this condition now. Finding Levamisole shouldn't be too hard for me. My friend owns a farm just outside the city, a sort of farm/ranch if you will. Perhaps she knows where to find some?

I'm very sorry to hear about your fish, JWhipple

[Martin Thoene]

...is it wrong how long I laughed at this?

Absolutely not. It is my firm belief that using humour in a sensible measure is a very good educational tool. You got the point right?

If the information has some warmth in it people find it more acceptable and are more inclined to take it on-board. I've maintained that philosophy here for around 8 years and people keep coming back for more so I guess it has value.

If I want to get cold hard facts, I'll go read a scientific tome. If I want to help out my sick fish I'll listen to what worked for others without questioning every piece of minuteae. But that's just me.

Martin.

[mikev]

Mike, the term "Skinny Disease" is a colloquialism that is long-term accepted as a description for this syndrome.

Martin, I know this.

I'm unhappy with the term because it makes the novice assume that it is one disease. The question about it being "contagious" simply did not make sense; but this confusion leads to other misunderstandings.

For example, in Botia's, Skinny Disease is usually a worm infection, to be treated by levamisole. But in Balitorids, Skinny Disease is often (usually?) refusal to feed that no amount of levamisole will cure. In some plecos, Skinny disease may be simply wrong food. Mixing these together is not helpful.

In humans, "Skinny Disease" could be TB, cancer, a misguided weight-loss attempt, AIDS, and -- yeah -- good old tapeworms. And ten other things. A physician that diagnoses "Skinny Disease" will lose his license.

//rant over.

[shari2]

JWhipple I'm so sorry to hear about your fish.

mikev,

I don't know that I've run into the actual term "Skinny Disease" anywhere applied to fish other than loaches. Elsewhere I've seen myriads of comments/questions about fish that are wasting away, getting skinny, etc, but the specific term SD seems to be something of a loachism. There have been other discussions here regarding it, and the consensus is that the name is misleading, so you do have support in your viewpoint. Nevertheless, it seems to be hanging on... Whether someone uses CWS or skinny disease, just depends on the person, I guess.

As for "The question about it being "contagious" " not making sense? I think it is sensible for someone who knows little about something that kills fish to ask if it is contagious. I would.

[mikev]

Shari,

Balitorid's are loaches. The example with plecos would apply to some specific situations with loaches too.

I think we understand each other's points. I do want to expand just a little here:

As for "The question about it being "contagious" " not making sense? I think it is sensible for someone who knows little about something that kills fish to ask if it is contagious. I would.

I suspect that this is only because from the name it appears that this one disease, and this comes from the word "disease" used imprecisely. The first question should always be "what is the disease that causes my animal to whither away.", only knowing the answer to this one can answer the question about the disease being contagious and determine the appropriate treatment.

---

Here is something interesting to think about: it is believed that at least some cases of the disease are caused by bacteria. (We don't know for a fact that this is true). Such cases would be contagious.

[shari2]

Balitorid's are loaches.

Thanks for clearing that up for me.
You had mentioned "Skinny Disease" being applied to humans, which I have not specifically seen.

Here is something interesting to think about: it is believed that at least some cases of the disease are caused by bacteria. (We don't know for a fact that this is true). Such cases would be contagious.

This I have been aware of for some time, and am currently looking into, which is why I frequently mention the use of antibiotics in conjunction with levamisole for treatment.

[mikev]

You had mentioned "Skinny Disease" being applied to humans, which I have not specifically seen.

Granted, today "Fatty Disease" is more common. But if you roll back the clock by a century, you shall find people more concerned with "Wasting away". As for specific terms, googling on "Wasting Syndrome" (rather than "Wasting Disease") will get you into AIDS and Cancer, but in the 19th century it would have been the same tapeworms and TB.

Here is something interesting to think about: it is believed that at least some cases of the disease are caused by bacteria. (We don't know for a fact that this is true). Such cases would be contagious.

This I have been aware of for some time, and am currently looking into, which is why I frequently mention the use of antibiotics in conjunction with levamisole for treatment.

Right, this one is a tough one. Justification for concurrent use of antibiotics is currently very weak, this is why I prefer not to mention it.

[shari2]

There have also been a number of cases of fishkeepers with skinny fish who treated them successfully (as in the fish did survive and thrive) by using Maracyn I and II, rather than levamisole.

So it is a mass of confusion. Gonna take a while, and the article may raise more questions than it actually answers. Wouldn't it be nice if some ichthyologist somewhere got interested enough to do a study on the topic?

[mikev]

There have also been a number of cases of fishkeepers with skinny fish who treated them successfully (as in the fish did survive and thrive) by using Maracyn I and II, rather than levamisole.

I know and I'm skeptical.

Antibiotics are helpful to combat secondary damage (I had an interesting case that involved nematodes).
Chronic bacterial infections tend to require specialized long-term treatment (cf. human TB), so I'm not fully convinced that they are responsible for some of the "Skinny" cases.

So it is a mass of confusion. Gonna take a while, and the article may raise more questions than it actually answers. Wouldn't it be nice if some ichthyologist somewhere got interested enough to do a study on the topic?

Aquarium fish research is not a very hot area, and there is not much grant $ in it.

[andyroo]

Those second set of photos of the recovering pair of clowns... that looks like my guys. Stuffed to the bursting point on tank snails and prawns plus whatever else looks good in the fridge at least once per day and still looking... lythe and not growing much. Levamisole didn't change anything, however shifting back to and from dry flake food occasionally seems to shake it up and spark a bit of growth.
A

[mikev]

This is interesting -- this __maybe__ that elusive non-worm case of the disease.

One needs to first check the basics:
Are you sure you applied levamisole correctly?
Are you sure that your levamisole is good?
Did you try any other dewarming med?

The other possibility is that the recovery takes long time -- occasionally it seems to. For example, my original Skinny Kubotai did not grow much since the treatment -- it did round up and now eats normally, but it is still very small.

[andyroo]

Mike,
First Lev treatment was according to dosages recommeded on this site. Don't remember the percentages. Bought it from the local farm store.
The stuff turned the water bright yellow and was not mest with a pleased reaction from cichlids (heavy breathing, clamped fins), though nobody else seemed to notice. The stuff stayed without filtration (just bubbler) for 5 days. Good sunshine etc... and i could see cichlids getting better so didn't fuss water changes too much. After 5 days topped up water (20% or so) and put new charcoal in filter.

Didn't see much growth in fish, but plants exploded ! Levamisol is or breakes down into some serious fertilizer.

I'm thinking of re-treating after the Ich season (cold snapps in January).

A