Kuhlis can be weird

[mikev]

On Melafix: thank you for the explanation.

I noticed the pattern change happening on the first one and initially thought he was coming down with some sort of skin infection.

My reaction exactly

OK, I think I understand the situation.
I treated the entire tank with Melafix and got nine khulis into swimming. I've seen no dangerous signs except for swimming, and they were not swimming for air. In my case the exposure was not very extensive since the entire exercise was to get them to another tank; and I also used very little melafix (I forgot exactly but my general approach would be to put 1/4 of the recommendation (for any med) and then add more if needed..almost certainly this is what I did.)

I'd guess that pattern morphing puts serious stress on the fish and forcing it to swim made things that much worse; so we don't have a conclusive evidence that a normal khuli would get hurt.

Nonetheless, I believe that there is a danger... and now I'm in trouble: I'll need to get my khulis out of the 65g some time within two months and I don't know if this can be done without Melafix...real darn.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Martin's paper (Kottelat & Lim): thank you! -- it is interesting, and I read it quickly and will read carefully again. Unf., it does not help with Myersi variations: it is really on other species, and P.semicincta is simply dismissed as an alternative name.

On Semicincta: So far I found nothing like a clear definition of what this is supposed to be; I'll look more, but right now I'm assuming that the "broken pattern" type is not another species. In fact, I'm nearly certain that my "broken pattern" khuli came from Thailand, not Sumatra.

Next post on pattern-changes.

[cybermeez]

Cybermeez,

Thank you very much. I'm typing my answer now, but if you are around, one question I'll ask anyway: what is the definition of semicincta you apply?

This is how I've defined it in the upcoming loach book:
"A highly variable group, Pangio semicincta has nine to twelve black bars across the back over a reddish-orange background. There are two or three bars at the head and one or two bars at the tail that circle the body. The rest of the bars run from the back down to the mid line. The bars tend to be uneven, sometimes connecting to form a solid wedge of black joining at the base to form a saddle pattern."

A good rule of thumb for the average fishkeeper is, if it is an average sized kuhli that has the couple of bars on either end that join, and it doesn't clearly look like the other striped kuhlis, it's most likely P. semicincta.

[mikev]

P. cuneovirgata stay very small compared to the other striped kuhlis. They top out at about 2.5 inches and are about 1/2 the circumference of an average pencil.

Thanks; to clarify I was not confusing myersi with cuneovirgata; I only wanted to know if some of the crazy pattern stuff with myersi also occurs in cuneovirgata.

The real question is how do you think P. myersi and P. semicinctus differ?

[mikev]

On P.semicincta: I'll reread this carefully again, but it so far does not seem to make sense to me. FOr example, you khuli



would be myersi by your rule of thumb, and so will your "changed pattern" khuli.

[Martin Thoene]

In fact, I'm nearly certain that my "broken pattern" khuli came from Thailand, not Sumatra.

How do you know that Mike? Bangkok has exporters but by far the largest hub for SE Asian fish distribution is Singapore. Fish from many countries end up there and are then re-distributed across the world.
It's possible for batches of fish to get mixed. We're talking millions of fish annually here.

Martin.

[cybermeez]

Thanks; to clarify I was not confusing myersi with cuneovirgata; I only wanted to know if some of the crazy pattern stuff with myersi also occurs in cuneovirgata.

The real question is how do you think P. myersi and P. semicinctus differ?

P. myersi is a much chunkier fish. Fatter an lager on the whole. It has ten to fourteen long, broad, quadrangular, black bars that nearly encircle the body on an orange background. The bars never have a pale inner zone. The caudal fin is black or has a large black base blotch and a sub terminal black bar or row of spots. The orange space between the black bars tends to be much thinner than other kuhlis and the orange is usually a deep rich hue.

[mikev]

On pattern - shifters: mine is actually equally far from the picture I posted and yours, but it is the same thing. I'm reasonably confident that it has nothing whatsoever to do with being myersi or semicincta.

Here is what happened here: I was trying to find more amelanistic khulis and looked at a few hundred myersi's (I'm going to use this term for myersi or semicincta until there is a clear way to know what is what); while i could not find another one like have, I did find five with very weak color. Out of five, two quickly died (no big surprise), two quickly recovered, and one went into the morph.

Prior to the morph it was a normal myersi of the most boring type: there were no connected stripes or dots. Just like you when I saw crazy changes to the pattern I assumed it to be sick, but I did not treat (I thought it is hopeless ), and since I had no reasons to think this is an infection, I even did not quarantine it. The change took about three months and resulted in a fairly ugly khuli (his nickname is "Leper").

!!! I'll append to this post soon, I see Martin posted and want to reply !!!

[cybermeez]

On P.semicincta: I'll reread this carefully again, but it so far does not seem to make sense to me. FOr example, you khuli



would be myersi by your rule of thumb, and so will your "changed pattern" khuli.

No, it's a semicincta. Note how only the black bars under the chin and on the caudal penduncle touch the underside of the belly. The others barely go past the midline.


This is a true P. myersi:

[Wendie]

Here's a bad shot of the one that stays with the black kuhlis and shuns or is shunned by the other two. Notice the spots on his back.

[Martin Thoene]

Not forgetting of course, that P. myersi get a LOT bigger than other species, as well as chunkier. I've seen specimins at fish shows that looked like Dojos in pyamas (well nearly).

Martin.

[mikev]

In fact, I'm nearly certain that my "broken pattern" khuli came from Thailand, not Sumatra.

How do you know that Mike? Bangkok has exporters but by far the largest hub for SE Asian fish distribution is Singapore. Fish from many countries end up there and are then re-distributed across the world.
It's possible for batches of fish to get mixed. We're talking millions of fish annually here.

Martin.

Because I know a little how the lfs here does their business. If this were a "Petland" Khuli, I would not know, but this loach was shipped in a batch of 100 directly from Thailand, quite likely from people who actually caught it themselves. The lfs owner is a semi-friend by now, and I've discussed with him how he gets his fish many times, last time today. Almost certainly, no redistribution was involved.

[cybermeez]

Not forgetting of course, that P. myersi get a LOT bigger than other species, as well as chunkier. I've seen specimins at fish shows that looked like Dojos in pyamas (well nearly).

Martin.

A gravid female myersi can get so porky she looks like a striped breakfast sausage!

[Martin Thoene]

PHAT!





Martin.

[mikev]

This is a true P. myersi:

OK, I actually get this part. This is one of two loaches I got yesterday, and I have one more of this *variation*. To me, one distinctive characteristic is that the white(that is yellow/orange) stripes are lines of more or less fixed width, Cybermeez' semicincta has them expanding toward the bottom.

The problem is that the rest (non-true myersi) IMO do not represent one group, there are more distinctive characteristics. And I'm almost sure that a couple of the largest I have do not fit the 'true P.myersi' picture.

[mikev]

Either I'm very dumb, or the classification is not very clear. OK, my favorite loach:



The lines are parallel, so it is a myersi.
But it is only 2", so it is probably semicinctus.
But the bars go all the way to the belly, so it is a myersi
(this one is also certainly from Thailand)
----

It is this one, since I have the picture handy. I'll look for more later.