sea shells

msdolittle · Post by **msdolittle** » Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:48 pm

We set up a 30 gallon tank for my little boy. We just added three clown loaches a few days ago. Yesterday I noticed that they were gone. I have sea shells in the bottom of the tank..... one loach showed up today and still two are missing. I went searching for them and I know I found ONE up inside a sea shell, like a conch shell or something is what it is.... I felt up it with my pinky finger and felt someone jump. Now that I hold it up to light I can see a little face in a tiny hole on the back of the shell. I hope he isn't stuck.......should I break the shell to try and get him out?? I turned all the lights off and moved the shell to a semi hidden area in the tank....hoping maybe he'll come out on his own.

Anyone have any advice? I just got these guys and they are so cute, I'd hate for anything to happen to them!

Martin Thoene · Post by **Martin Thoene** » Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:07 pm

Welcome to LOL msdolittle.

Few problems here actually........3 Clowns are going to need much more than a 30 gallon tank in the not too distant future. Small ones can grow quite quickly to 3 or 4 inches then slow down a bit, but be aware that Clowns get BIG. Check out the thread by Emma Turner showing pics of hers.....one is 11.5"!

http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php?t=675

Generally, we recommend a minimum of 55 gallons for a small group of juveniles.

Next thing....the shells. However decorative these may appear, they are not correct for most tropical freshwater tanks because they will tend to harden the water.....last thing you need with Clowns.

And thirdly......Clowns natural tendency to hide in tight spots can cause them to get stuck sometimes. The danger lies where little ones get used to using a tight spot until they grow some, then get stuck. It is strongly advised to not use any ornament or bogwood....anything with a blind hole in it.

So.....They'll be OK in the 30 for a while, but not too long. X the shells once the fish come out of them. Trying to break them with a fish inside is asking for trouble. Replace with something like flat pieces of slate or rocks that can form caves the fish can shelter in. They need this sort of retreat for their comfort and security.

Another thing......Clowns are not the first fish you should be putting in a tank. They need to go in matured tanks that have been running succesfully for a while.

Martin.

msdolittle · Post by **msdolittle** » Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:23 pm

Thank you so much Martin. I was leary of trying to break the shell.....I don't want to injure anyone. I will remove the shells tomorrow and as soon as they come out of the one in question I'll remove it as well.

Obviously I didn't do enough research on clown loaches! I just read a little in a couple books I have but I didn't read anything indicating needing a larger tank...... I'm really glad I found this forum, and my fishes will be too.

Martin Thoene · Post by **Martin Thoene** » Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:28 pm

Yes Angela, research is the key

Have a read of this (click on titles beside main picture).

http://www.loaches.com/almanac/index.html

Best info I can give you in one chunk until our Loach Book is published.

Martin.

msdolittle · Post by **msdolittle** » Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:10 pm

Thanks Martin. I have quite a zoo around my house and I've always researched a new animal extensively......I guess I let myself be fooled into thinking I didn't need to with the fishes. You know people have a "disposable" attitude toward many animals, especially fish. Several people that I talked to even told me I was worrying too much about the quality of my water and how many/what kinds of fish to put in my tank. Now I know I need to trust my own instincts. How silly of me to think that I could just trust what a pet store person said and one or two books..... I keep reptiles too and I know very well that pet store employees don't usually know much about them, I should have kept that in mind when purchasing my fishes.

I really appreciate your help and I'll be lurking around this place for more advice as I go! I just hope I haven't harmed the little loaches because of my ignorance.

mikev · Post by **mikev** » Sat Mar 04, 2006 10:50 am

Aaah, reptiles....

Martin, what do you think about this solution
(sorry for the picture quality):

This is simply a fake log from the reptile section of a pet store (decorations in the fish section all looked dangerous). Clowns (and other loaches) like it. Pleco like it too. There is no way to get stuck or cut in it, and it is sufficiently open that I can see what is happening inside. Just clean/disinfect it, especially if it was used for reptiles already, and check that there are no sharp edges inside.

(I used to see four CL's and a few khulis packed into it...no longer possible)

msdolittle · Post by **msdolittle** » Sat Mar 04, 2006 12:30 pm

I just wanted to let Martin know that all three loaches are accounted for and will be returned to place of purchase today.....

Probably they'll get sold to some other idiot who won't care for them properly but I sure don't want their blood on my hands. The last little bugger finally came out of the shell....but I had to gently shake him out.

I'm really sad about this......they were my favorite fishes......they seemed to have personality that the others don't.

Do you guys have any recommendations for a smallish fish that is comparable in personality and charm? I'm new to the fish gig so I don't know the ins and outs of each fishy......

msdolittle · Post by **msdolittle** » Sat Mar 04, 2006 12:32 pm

Mike....thanks for the pic. I'll be looking into some new hiding materials for the rest of the crew!

mikev · Post by **mikev** » Sat Mar 04, 2006 12:49 pm

Do you guys have any recommendations for a smallish fish that is comparable in personality and charm?

Hmm....I don't think it exists. Other botias are entertaining too, but IMHO CL's have far the richest spectrum of behaviors. Unfortunately, as Martin said, if you want to keep CL's, you'll need a larger tank.

Other smaller loaches that are suitable for 30g include polkadots (kubotai), zebra, and khulis. But you will get a much better advice if you post the parameters of your tank (pH, gH) and the list of the current inhabitants.

Graeme Robson · Post by **Graeme Robson** » Sat Mar 04, 2006 12:55 pm

Natural elements do supply a fine environment for our loved Loaches.

Sand,stone,wood,plants and of course Water!

msdolittle · Post by **msdolittle** » Sat Mar 04, 2006 1:16 pm

mikev wrote:
Do you guys have any recommendations for a smallish fish that is comparable in personality and charm?
Hmm....I don't think it exists. Other botias are entertaining too, but IMHO CL's have far the richest spectrum of behaviors. Unfortunately, as Martin said, if you want to keep CL's, you'll need a larger tank.

Other smaller loaches that are suitable for 30g include polkadots (kubotai), zebra, and khulis. But you will get a much better advice if you post the parameters of your tank (pH, gH) and the list of the current inhabitants.

My inhabitants:
three black tetras
three swordtails
three dwarf gouramis

I take my water periodically to a local pet store...they have a good reputation (this is NOT the place I purchased the loaches btw). I'm really new at this so please don't beat me up too much, I'm learning! Nevertheless, I don't know the numbers (ph etc.....) I just have my water tested and they tell me if its okay. Is that naive??

Its a fairly new tank, only a month old......I was told to put a bacteria solution in to speed up the nitrogen cycle also....is that correct? I was adding it weekly, and now I'm doing it every two weeks. Since the tank is only a month old (JUST at a month) I haven't done a water change yet.

Okay, let me have it!

msdolittle · Post by **msdolittle** » Sat Mar 04, 2006 1:17 pm

What kind is that sweet little blue fish at the bottom of the tank?

gulogulo · Post by **gulogulo** » Sat Mar 04, 2006 1:21 pm

Others may disagree but I would suggest a single Botia modesta (orange finned loach) like the one in Graeme's photo. I kept one for many years in a 20g and later a 55g. If provided with a large cave (mine loved a half of a terra cotta pot) they will exhibit many interesting loach behaviors like clown loaches. They also are colorful with the blue body and red-orange fins. They can be aggressive but mine only bothered other bottom dwellers. Good luck!

msdolittle · Post by **msdolittle** » Sat Mar 04, 2006 1:27 pm

They are cute! However, I'm so paranoid now that I'd be afraid they might harm one of my others..... I did read about them just now and there were a few mentions of their aggressive nature. I'll wait and see if others agree with you though first!

mikev · Post by **mikev** » Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:08 pm

msdolittle wrote: I take my water periodically to a local pet store...they have a good reputation (this is NOT the place I purchased the loaches btw). I'm really new at this so please don't beat me up too much, I'm learning! Nevertheless, I don't know the numbers (ph etc.....) I just have my water tested and they tell me if its okay. Is that naive??

A little yes. Firstly, don't trust any lfs to do things right for you. Much better to check yourself, this way you are certain. Your lfs has testing kits for AMMONIA, NITRITES and NITRATES. You should have them at home, no matter what kind of fish you have.

What your lfs tested was probably Ammonia only, or Ammonia and Nitrites...if they were 0, the store said: OK, but actually it is a bit more complicated.

I'd suggest getting these three kits, and also pH and gH kits. gH is generally less important (except for loaches and some other special cases) and your store may not have it. pH they will have. Check your water yourself and post the results.

Its a fairly new tank, only a month old......I was told to put a bacteria solution in to speed up the nitrogen cycle also....is that correct? I was adding it weekly, and now I'm doing it every two weeks.

Uggh, NO. You should not have any fish unless you have a stable cycle already, and you don't add more bacteria when you have a stable cycle. Don't add any more bacteria and check all the params listed above.

Since the tank is only a month old (JUST at a month) I haven't done a water change yet.

You should, and make sure to use the conditioner, but check the params before doing the water change.

hth.

Okay, let me have it!

Don't worry. lfs' always give lots of "helpful" advices...in my early days I asked if a common pleco is ok for 29g...they told me I can keep two or three in a 10g.

And this was not the worst advice they gave me.

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