Help ID a loach..../Hillstream tank setup question

[mikev]

Thanks, Jim,

Darn. I feel sorry for those Goby babies.
But I also suspect that I missed a kuhli spawn with the eggs served to a Pakistani terrorist gang (young yoyos), 'nuf is 'nuf.

please don't tell me that white clouds are also dangerous....

[Jim Powers]

I had white clouds in with spawning chenis and disparis and never noticed any predation. However, with all the babies I was getting I wouldn't have minded a little.
By the way, I have been looking at the pics of the species of "green hillstream" with all the barbels. I really think that, as Martin and I said before, it has to be some sort of crossostoma. I look forward to seeing some clearer pics.

[mikev]

I had white clouds in with spawning chenis and disparis and never noticed any predation. However, with all the babies I was getting I wouldn't have minded a little.

Uggh... ... and this makes me rather envious.

By the way, I have been looking at the pics of the species of "green hillstream" with all the barbels. I really think that, as Martin and I said before, it has to be some sort of crossostoma. I look forward to seeing some clearer pics.

I do think your Valmonenia guess is correct; the pattern is too distinct. The other half may be anything. I think the picture with the barbels is from the other half. (I'm assuming I'm getting about 5 of each..I actually did not count, simply said that I want all ).

There is really no way to get better pictures now. At the store I could not even aim the camera at the loaches (bottom tank in a narrow aisle), I had to hold the carema low and aim the target light. If they make it, some time next week is probably the earliest.

Incidentally, I'm really unsure I'm doing the right thing leaving them there for too long.
Compare the store conditions vs my 10g:

Temp: 75; I can give them 70.
Bare bottom tank; I can give them a planted with sand and some remaining algae.
Current: none; maybe I can give them a bit somehow.
Ph: 7.0 vs 6.4 (I can raise it a bit too).
And the store lost entire tanks all too many times....

This is basically the Q-tank situation: when you quarantine hillstreams do you provide them a tank with current for the one-two weeks of quarantine?

I obviously don't mean to keep them in 10g for too long; the filter and the powerhead are already bought, I'll pick up the tank hopefully tomorrow, and I'm going ahead with it. But I'd actually feel more comfortable to stretch the process by a few days, make sure that the sand in the new tank settles, the cycle is solid, and that white clouds do ok for three days or so...with a new tank one can never be sure.
There are some drawbacks to the taking them faster plan (extra acclimation is one and the possibility of crashing 10g is another) but I think they actually will be better off this way,,, so I'm tempted to see the situation at the store on Thursday and if they are still mostly alive, take them home even before their tank is ready.

[Jim Powers]

The tank I use as a Q tank is an existing setup (10g) that has a few fish in it. It has an Eclipse filter (150gph) and a small 80gph Rio powerhead.
If you are going to set up a temporary Q tank , you need to remember that while current is very important to them, oxygen level is more so. If you keep them in an uncycled Q tank for a few days, be sure you have good oxygen levels and, of course,watch the ammonia levels, too.
They will do without the current for a few days, but high oxygen levels are essential. Numerous airstones will do the trick.
If you have an extra powerhead, or pump sitting around, you could use that too. Just make sure they are prevented from getting sucked up against the intake.

[Martin Thoene]

Yes, absolutely the Q-tank needs good current. this period is essential in bringing fish back from the rigours of transport.
I know this is all venturing into new territory for you Mike, but my personal preference is to get fish out of the shop ASAP once they've had 24 hours or so to settle after shipping. That's usually the highest die-off time. After that I like to get them into my conditions as soon as I can because I know they're better off than in the shop tank's.

Unless it's Emma's shop of course

Martin.

[mikev]

I know this is all venturing into new territory for you Mike, but my personal preference is to get fish out of the shop ASAP once they've had 24 hours or so to settle after shipping.

It is a new territory, but my preference is exactly the same. After 3 days at the store fish starts dying for reasons unrelated to shipping. Oh, worse, gets screwed up for life, seen this too.

It seems that I totally misunderstood what you were saying: I thought you were telling me to leave the fish at the store until I have a fully running final tank. Stupid me. The 10g is fully cycled, has been running for months, and should be able to host them, I'll work out some compromise with the current inhabitants (3 khulis who will be glad to join a larger knot; 5 young rasboras that should have joined the shoal already == should be about the same bioload as 10 hillstreams, so probably no ammonia spikes). The only remaining problem is a couple of baby plecos which I cannot move anywhere, so it will have to be less current.
And it is not a problem to pick up an extra air pump (it already has two running) and a less powerful powerhead.

Thank you two very much again, this feels much saner to me than leaving them at the store. Hopefully they are still alive out there, the place is ... well, not Emma's.

[mikev]

OK, I'm getting there. Tank/hood/stand/heater/ug filter/powerhead are here.

I got an airpump intended for 60g (the store guy told me that it will really hurt the fish...Hope not.). The intend is to use fine sand, about twenty smooth round stones (about 2" diameter---a store promised them tomorrow), and 2-3 java ferns, maybe one sword.

Would driftwood be a good idea? (a piece with a large area under it, but no dangerous caves).

One more question: are you sure that the UG filter will actually handle the load? (I used UG before, with gf, but I also had a 2nd normal filter).

It looks like the fish is doing ok at the store (eating, running, most fins are up...it seems they lower the dorsal occasionally without being sick)..they are coming here likely tomorrow night. Probably more than I expected to make it.

A couple have a reddish area behind their heads...does not look like a disease, but it is not present on the valmonenia pictures. Anyway, if everything is ok, pictures soon.

Ooops...one more question: is there anything bigger than white clouds that is still suitable? (I try to visualize the tank and it will look empty). Or solve it with more white clouds?

Sorry to be a bother.

[Martin Thoene]

Whoa again!

You can't use an UG filter with sand, only with gravel (there's a rather large hint in the name). Generally, because of high water flow rates, these hillstream fish do not experience sand in their natural habitats due to erosion. Only heavy stones and gravel remain.

Try using sand and your powerhead will just suck it up and grind away the impeller to destruction .

Driftwood is OK and you can tie the Java Fern to it where it will take root.

Other than whiteclouds there's a mass of different Danio species that come to mind.

http://www.danios.info/ ...........enter via the photograph...Oh! it's one of mine!

Martin.

[mikev]

Martin, thanks a lot.

I hope you understand that I'm not on firm ground here. Thank you for stopping some idiocy. I was looking at the Vanmanenia pictures for too long...thought this is what needs to be copied.

You can't use an UG filter with sand, only with gravel

Actually, you can, there are two methods, and I do it in my other 29g right now. You can layer gravel, then sand over it (this is what I have), or you can put a protective sheet over the UG filter (this is what I was going to do.) This will reduce the filter effectiveness somewhat. But a powerhead kills sand for sure.

I guess use the smallest gravel possible, so hillstreams can dig in it if they want to. Something like 2mm-3mm grains?

Thank you for the Danio list! I see you are everywhere!

[Martin Thoene]

Martin, thanks a lot.

I hope you understand that I'm not on firm ground here. Thank you for stopping some idiocy.

The thanks are appreciated. Obviously I am correct, but then you tell me I'm not. If you continue to answer back"Yes, but" to almost everything people tell you, you'll find there comes a time when the unfirm ground becomes quicksand and nobody bothers to reach out with a branch or throw you a rope.

But a powerhead kills sand for sure.

Incorrect. Sand kills powerheads. Using sand can be done as you suggest with maybe an air powered uplift but totally removes the efficiency of a substrate filter because of impeding flow through it, and is therefore pointless used in that context.

I guess use the smallest gravel possible, so hillstreams can dig in it if they want to. Something like 2mm-3mm grains?

Ideal.

Thank you for the Danio list! I see you are everywhere!

I asked Peter Cottle if he would like to use my photographs because they were better than those he was currently using to illustrate various species. I did this because I felt they would improve identification information for his visitors and as a thank you for the excellent information that his posts on another forum had given me.
I never took his advice and answered back, "Thank you Peter...BUT......"
From Peter, I got a suprised and courteous thankyou that somebody took the time and bother to help improve his site.

There's probably a lesson to be learned here. Right now you're in my lecture hall, so please don't interrupt the lesson.

Somebody once told me that to be good in computer programming you have to possess hubris. I'm sure in your position that you are fully accredited in that.

Martin .............Oh, and a PS.....This is not just my personal opinion on your responses. I'm acting more here as lecturer/spokesperson.

[mikev]

Martin, thanks a lot.

No more interruptions, but another question later may be possible.

[Jim Powers]

Yes, listen and you will learn...

[andyroo]

Folks,

Stunned at the snapps of Thai river gobies. Lovely patterns/colours. Can you bring out the colours with diet or are they largely with behaviour/season/tankmates?

I've been collecting little algae eating stream gobies around here with some lovely colours, but they seem to loose them / gain them / they change according to ... i don't know.

And to answer another question from above, no... CL's don't seem to dither with these gobies no matter how active they (gobies) are.


Andyroo

ps: any suggestions on feeding a f/w pipefish? Do they exist in the northern industry?

[mikev]

Yes, listen and you will learn...

Yes, sir! I'm listening with the utmost attention and no interruptions.

One thing I forgot to mention: I have a feeling that they may be all Vanmanenia. When I rechecked them today, it looked like the fine pattern appeared on more fish; may be the same thing as graying out on stressed CL's and some other Botia's. Also, when I looked through the dead fish at the store on Sunday, I could not find any with the pattern. (I brought one home and remembered only now...very powerful smell from a 1" fish).

Three more questions if possible. Not urgent, only rechecking that I got you right.

1. Food.
They certainly take algae wafers, I assume they will take frozen bloodworms, anything special they may need?

2. Temperature.
Keep steady 70F for now, switch off the heater once I can be sure temp will not fall below 60F. -- ok?

3. Hiding places.
I'm not constructing any at the beginning; in the store tank they were not hiding under the slate as much as a khuli or my schisturas would...maybe not hiding at all. Will only give them a place under driftwood and a couple of tubes to see if they are used. --ok?

[Jim Powers]

I guess we'll have to wait to see what species you have. It will be interesting to get a positive ID.
Foods: Bloodworms, algae wafers, shrimp pellets, brine shrimp are all good choices. You'll have to see if they have any preferences.
Temperature: I would try to keep it in the 70-75F range.
Hiding places: The driftwood sounds good. They will probably like the tubes, but only time will tell. What I usually do is lean a few small pieces of slate against the back and or side of the tanks. This way they can hide behind them, rest on the outside surface or even, in time, graze on the outside as algae grows on the slate.
Extra filtration: You mentioned in a previous post about adding filtration other than just the UG filter. That would probably be a good idea. I use UG filters on all my tanks, but also have other filtration. A good hang on tank filter would probably be fine.