Black dots on clown Loaches

[chefkeith]

Why is the TDS so high in your tank? Are you adding something to it? There is a potential water quality issue here. That is an extreme TDS difference between the tank and tap. 450 TDS is very hard. Only African Ciclids should be kept in water that hard. Do you have rocks that are leaching into the tank?

I wrote a TDS Calculator in xls format- You can try it out if you like
http://www.geocities.com/chefkeithallen/tdswizard.xls

[chefkeith]

For reference, this is doglover_50's thread on clown loach spots or freckles-
http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php?t=6589

[chefkeith]

Clown Loaches may be unique from other fish. There have been discussions here that a clown loaches coloration may be an indicator that they produce a toxin. A very stinky toxin that can be released within there slime coat or mucus. Maybe it's a defense mechanism of some sort. This has been witnessed by a few people here.

For reference here's that thread-
http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php?t=157

Maybe the black spots are related to this somehow? Maybe the internal pressure that a clown loach experiences from a TDS drop triggers a small release of this toxin, thus it leaves a "stain" underneath the mucus layers of the slime coat. Other stress events may also trigger the release of this toxin, such as chasing and netting the fish. Maybe netting is like recreating how the clown is getting swallowed by a large predatory fish or bird. I've already proven that these black spots are not permanent. They can be removed with a prolonged salt bath. That isn't the best thing for loaches either, but it will clean away the blemish.

[doglover_50]

Sorry Keith, no pix, but they are identical to other people who have posted where the clown has numerous freckles around head and top fin.

Your question on water hardness was good and hopefully will stimulate me to investigate further and possibly take action to soften my water. However, I don't agree that there is a water quality issue (see below). If anything, I think my water may not be at an ideal given where these particular fish come from, and I need to adjust the hardness down. An initial idea is that I could use the "waste water" coming out of the 4-stage ro/di unit, which has TDS of under 100. However, other than hardness, I'm quite happy with my parameters and feel fortunate they stay where they do. Ammonia, nitrates, nitrite stay in acceptable range. ph is where I'd like it to be. And alkalinity looks fine. I'm not 100% sure on the ideal temp, as I have golden dojos, clowns, angelicus, plus a few other fish in there. But the tank keeps a steady 76.

As I mentioned, I appreciate your comment on hardness, and I will be looking into that, as I am on a well, so water is definitely hard.

I think we just have a different experiences specifically on the TDS, and I draw my conclusions from keeping my FW tank and my reef tanks and keeping my eye on TDS in water going into those tanks. Rather than the total TDS that you describe and focus on, my concern is more with specific dissolved solvents that would create problems---phosphates, calcium (which could go too low in overly soft water), or metals. So when my TDS from the tank is 450, I'm not worried--that's simply a function of fish waste, food, dead skin from my arm being in there, the algae bits from my scraping of the glass, plus the many other factors of what's going on in the living tank. I personally do not think that my total TDS matters at all as long as the solvents present are not ones that cause problems--the rest could literally be dirt matter from my well--just sediment.

I tried reading TDS on my reef tank last night. Here's what I got. ERROR.
Because the TDS count is so high in the tank (from the salt, mainly) that it is astronomically high. Which again, is no problem if the solvents aren't toxic or ones that promote nuisance algae growth. And when I (or any reef keeper) do a big water change on those tanks with ro/di water with TDS = 0, any TDS fluctuation isn't a problem. So I know that's a different arena than clown loaches in particular, and may not transfer--I'm just being verbose here to explain where my logic and thinking comes from. It does make me wonder, as an extension of what you are thinking, if there are particular solvents that cause the brown spots when there is a big TDS change (magnesium, calcium, ???).

So I guess what I'm saying is I'm pleased to read your ideas and research, plus get feedback from you (like that hard water issue). However, I want to share to you and others reading this informative thread what's happened with my tank as more data and ideas about this perplexing phenomenon.

Reading up on the brown spot problem in the threads, I don't see anything I would want to change--other than the hardness issue you brought up. I'm going to pass on salt dip or other attempts to treat it if it is indeed basically a blemish.

Anyhoo, I'm looking forward to more exchanges about this or other topics with you and others, and hope this is taken in the spirit it was intended. I have a lot to learn for my loaches, without a doubt. My apologies Keith and others that I tend to have problems writing briefly!

Cheers!

[chefkeith]

I do wish that you would try to get some pic's so that this can be better documented. If I'm wrong about something, I'd like to atleast have a base for it. For all I know, you could be trying to punk me. (which would be a very good one on me).

I have other questions-
How frequently do you do water changes? I do warn you that you shouldn't make any large water changes. The osmotic shock could do harm to your fishes internal organs.

My TDS calculator estimates that if you do 10% weekly water changes, then your TDS should plateau at about 275. If it's anything higher than 275, and your tap has a TDS of 250, then there is a problem somewhere.

For example the TDS in my main tanks is about 136, the TDS of my source tap water is about 125. The main reason for the difference in the two is evaporation.

Alot of people do mix well water with RO water to get the mineral levels down. You'll need to get the levels down slowly. That's my advice.

[doglover_50]

You been punked, Keith! Dammit, how did you figure it out? Well I guess my "Doglover" cover is blown. Ashton Kutcher here. Closet loach fan.



I'll try to fix my digital battery problems (charger) and get those pix here, more tomorrow.
Hasta

[clownygirl]

My clowns seem to have these splotches too, but they are not like freckles. They are more like black splotches and some are as big as a centimetre in diameter. I know they are not markings or from pigmentation, because they appear over the black areas as well.

I lost a clown recently to this, because over time, his eyes turned cloudy, he became really sluggish and died. I have another one who seems to be headed the same way.

I have had these clowns for 3 years now.

I have some pieces of fibre decorations in the tank that have been there for almost a year now, but one of them is discolouring at the moment. I dont know if the disease is from something leaching into the water, or something else.

The only other time the clowns had similar black splotches was when the tank leaked and I had to instantly move them to a bucket. I couldnt keep them in the bucket any longer (it took 5 days to get the tank up and running) so I added all 20 clowns back into the water. They developed these splotches (probably from the shock), I lost 3 large clowns and everything else then settled down, the clowns recovered on their own.

What do I do?

[shari2]

Hi clownygirl. Would it be possible for you to post pictures? It would really help...

And welcome to LOL.

[clownygirl]

I am planning to do that first thing I get home, the splotches are similar to the ones in the clown photos posted in the forum earlier, just bigger.

[chefkeith]

I'd get a TDS meter, check the TDS of tank water, then check the TDS of the source water. If the numbers arn't close to matching (within 5%), then I'd need to find out what's leaching into the tank water.

In the meantime, I'd only do small water changes. 20% water changes 2x per week.

[clownygirl]

Ok, so here are a few pictures of the affected clowns in my tank. The first picture is of the clown who passed away. You will see he has really bad fins, cloudy eyes, and terrible skin. I had nobody in the tank who would bother him, so I really cant tell what happened.



The yellowish brown branch like decoration in the background of the above photo is the piece of fibre decoration that is fast losing colour.

This is a clown with some small spots, eats well, is fat:



Another couple of pics of the worst affected clowns in the tank:

[shari2]

Black spot disease?

see HERE

Several larval trematodes infecting fish causing what is commonly known as "black spot" because of the characteristic, small (about 2 mm in diameter) dark brown or black spots which develop in the muscle and on the body, fins, gills and eyes of infected fish.

When the parasite infects the fish it forms a cyst within the host tissue. The cyst then becomes surrounded by pigment cells, giving it the characteristic dark colour. "Black spot" infections occur in several species of freshwater fish, but galaxiids appear to be particularly susceptible to infection, with some fish carrying hundreds of cysts on the body and fins.

The organism causing "black spot" has been previously identified as Neascus, but there are several species of trematodes which have larval stages which cause black spots; these species have yet to be identified. The adult trematode is generally found infecting fish-eating birds.

From an Australian website: DPI

One treatment: http://www.junglelabs.com/pages/aquariu ... sp?item=62

Apparently it's easier to treat than ick, but is also a parasite commonly introduced with new fish additions. If nothing new has been added to your tank, then this is highly unlikely to be the problem, however. Also in looking round a bit, it seems that the black spot disease commonly discussed as trematode caused is smaller in size than the spots I see on your fish.
Here's a link to a thread from the archives that might be more pertinent:
sorry...double link...I'll try to find the one I was intending...

How long have you noticed the spots? Have they increased in size or number? Do you have snails in the tank?

[chefkeith]

clownygirl- Thanks for posting the pics. It's very helpful.

Let us know a little more about your water source. Where do you live? I can probably find your local water report if your from the USA. What is your water source? Is it City water or well water or something else? How do you do your water changes? How much do you change and what is the frequency of them? Do you use heated water from a water heater? If so, what kind of water heater is it?

[clownygirl]

I live in India. I tried to go out and find a TDS kit, but I could not find any. I live in a city, and use tap water for water changes. I do around 30% once a week. I treat the water for chloramines before I use it.

The temps are very warm, so water does not need to be pre-heated. I do have a heater in the tank, but it never really turns on, temps are always higher than 30 degrees C.

I did add a few snails to the tank as food for the clowns, but that was a very long time ago. On the other hand, the clowns have had these spots for a while now, and I dont know if the snails started it. The spots however, do seem to increase in size and number over a period of time.

I tried treating them with Rid Ich in between, but that did not seem to help.

I have on the other hand, started doing small frequent water changes, and the spots seem to be reducing. I also removed the piece of decoration I had in there, that I suspecting was leaching today afternoon.

The hood for the tank had a metal tube light strip that had rusted, and I found some rust particles in the tank while doing a water change. I removed the hood, and took the light strip out today afternoon.

[shari2]

I'd keep on doing the water changes. Apparently black spot (if that's what it is) is not too dangerous...and if you get rid of the snails and don't have birds pooping in the tank you can break the life cycle.

The clown you lost seemed to be suffering from some type of bacterial infection. Keep an eye out for other fish developing fin rot or cloudy eyes. If they do, you may want to consider a course of antibiotics. The frequent small water changes may help to lower any bacteria in the tank, too.

Rid ich would not affect black spot, I don't think.

Good call on removing the rusty light strip and the decoration.

Sorry, that second link was the same as the first.
Having trouble finding it again...I'll post later or you can search the archives above for it.