brownspots/goosebumps

[doglover_50]

OK, back to brownspots....just got back from 10 day vacation, and my clown has what I can only describe as something looking like goosebumps all over his body. Still eating, behavior normal, but unlike the brownspots, this is NOT in any way subtle.
Pix on the way, but...anyone?

[doglover_50]

His lateral line (or whatever it's called on the midline) is also very visible--well defined.

[Emma Turner]

Hi doglover_50,

Is this definitely not whitespot (ich) that you are seeing? If not, apologies for asking the obvious.

Any other symptoms - rapid breathing, clamped fins etc?

Emma

[doglover_50]

Emma,

I don't believe it is ick, mainly because of the spacing of the "goosebumps." It really looks like they are spaced at very small but regular intervals (similar to the goose bump description). Also, they don't have the look of an external parasite like ich.

I am not seeing any other abnormalities. Despite water parameters looking adequate with test kit, I did a vacuum of the rocks and 10% WC as I was away 10 days.

Tanks lights are turned off for the night, will try for pix at breakfast.

[Emma Turner]

A picture should be of great help, if it is possible once the lights are back on.

Are these goosebumps restricted to just the head area, or do they definitely cover the entire body? Is this only affecting one of your clown loaches?

You said the water parameters were 'adequate', would you be able to state the current readings (ammonia, nitrIte and nitrAte) for us please?

Emma

[shari2]

Are they anything like this?



If so, see this thread:
http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php ... sc&start=0

[doglover_50]

Quick update--yes Shari, that's what it looks like, and all over the body. No noticeable worsening over the past 36 hours. He's eating heartily. Emma, the other 3 clowns look fine.

I've had a tank disaster in my large reef tank--I left off the skimmer last night for cleaning and 3 fish and 2 shrimp and a large coral died of oxygen starvation (and I have 5 powerheads in there--I wouldn't have even guessed, but I introduced 2 new fish last night which I guess put O2 consumption over a threshold--I am just kicking myself) so I've been focused on that all day.

I have to leave the house to repair my mood--I am in the pits. And my darn camera battery died--again. Anyway, more in a few hours with hopefully pix and more specific parameter info. when I can face my tanks! DL

[doglover_50]

Shari, interesting post, interesting topic, interesting exchanges...

Anhoo, I did manage one pic with my battery-disabled camera. I'm just back off vacation, didn't even clean my glass, so the pic isn't great. However, you can discern what I'm seeing under the eye of the clown and on the black stripe--there is a regularity to it that is almost like pores or something rather than parasites. You can also see the pronounced lateral line. BTW, this is a small fish in a tank that is sadly unlikely to be conducive to breeding conditions--she's (I think a she) around 3 inches long.

I'm still out of the house recovering, but will indeed follow up with water parameters before night's end.

[doglover_50]

Fish have been with me over 12 months in this tank, water is well water, and very hard. Water is kept at 77 degrees (trying for happy medium with clowns and weather loaches I have in the tank)

Ammonia: 0
Nitrates: 30 ppm (mg/L) ----My well water has nitrates around 20 ppm
Nitrite: 0
pH: 7.2
Alkalinity 120ppm
total hardness: 425 ppm

Loaches get flakes in a.m., frozen in p.m., cukes and zucchini a few times per week. Weekly water changes, 1x/month gravel siphon

[ckk125]

That looks like ich to me..

[helen nightingale]

Doglover, sorry to say this as it sounds like you are having a rought ride at the moment. i think you should seriously consider housing your clowns and your weather loaches separately as they have different needs. please have a read here:

http://www.loaches.com/species-index/cl ... cracanthus

http://www.loaches.com/species-index/we ... licaudatus

if it turns out you do have Ick/whitespot, you can then safely raise the tank temp higher without risking the weather loaches health. clown loaches can be very susceptible to ick, so they may benefit most.

best wishes for sorting your problem here

[shari2]

I have to agree it doesn't look like tubercules to me. Though it doesn't look much like ich, either. Uniform spacing and size of spots, swollen (or raised?) sensory pores, total fin and body coverage, no apparent difficulty breathing, no flashing, no other fish affected?
The dorsal fin looks like it's disintegrating a bit, too.
I'll look around a bit to see if I can find anything that would include the enlarged sensory pores/lateral line issue, but in a quick look just now haven't found anything...

Have you ever had ich in this tank?

The brown spots are likely due to TDS or possibly the high hardness? chefkeith would better address that particular issue.

The temp at 77 is really not optimal for either dojos or clowns. Neither will be terrifically happy with that as a constant for very long. I have heard frequent anecdotal accounts of ick outbreaks in clowns who have been in cooler water...it raises their stress level, lowers both their immunity and their appetite (though i see you've said this fish is eating heartily) which often leads to increased susceptibility to disease or parasites.

[shari2]

Something on 'sessile peritrichs':
http://prr.hec.gov.pk/Chapters/861-1.pdf
(see page 12 and following)

Some info:
Heteropolaria (AKA Epistylis)


Figure 11: Heteropolaria Sp.

These parasites are called sessile peritrichs, and are found in freshwater fish. Shown in figure 11 they can be seen to be a large body rooted to the epidermis by a stalk (hence `sessile'). They are very numerous in water with a high level of organic matter. If a fish becomes stressed, its immunity to these parasites declines and they invade the fish leading to white-grey patches, and red sores in heavy infections. Interestingly, the parasite only uses the fish for attachment; it does not feed on the host, so it is not a true parasite. However through the attachment, wounding is created and secondary bacterial and fungal infection often follows. Treatment can be through salt baths as in Icthyobodo above, or antiparasitics. Use FMG mixture for Koi, Eradick / White Spot for more sensitive fish and pond fish, Use Ichcide or Aquarium White spot in freshwater aquaria.

Prevention is the best policy by maintaining good pond or tank cleanliness.
From:
http://ukdiscus.co.uk/microscope.htm

You could have a look through the other subjects on this page and see if anything else seems to fit the bill...I really don't know at this point and have run out of time to look around cause I gotta get to work.

I'll check back in later.
Couple of q's:
When you got home this fish was spotted like this? Any way to find out if it happened over time or overnight?

[doglover_50]

Yes, the spots were new when I got home from 10 day trip. I did have a savvy fish sitter, but he's incommunicado at some camp for a few days--I can check when I hear back.

Never had ick on these fish in this tank--over 1 year with me.

Helen, your point is well taken. I stocked the tank somewhere between 12-18 months ago--didn't know better at the time. The question is--what to do about it, if anything. I am in the process of upgrading my tank to give them better living conditions (sand rather than gravel hopefully within the week). Also, it looks like I may be able to get hold of a a 48 inch long 75 gallon tank, to upgrade from their current 36," 46 gallon tank.

This is my only FW tank, as I switched to reef tanks, and I already have too many tanks and not enough time. My dogs yell at me about the neglect. I just don't have the time, space, energy, resources, enough caffeine, etc... to do one large warm temp. tank and one cool water tank.
So that's where I'm stuck for the moment.


Also, I don't mean to split hairs, and I'm on the forum to learn, and I know *ideally* these fish should not be in the same tank (I REALLY don't mean to sound argumentative---I have looked and looked and looked at this issue of temp). That said, here's the hair to split--Helen, I checked the links you sent (about the 10th time I've read them, in fact). Clown temps are 78-83; weather loaches are 50-77 degrees. So the lack of overlap is by one degree. If I keep the temp where I do--77.5 (I know it's not exact, and it fluctuates, but that's what I try with my digital thermometer), we are talking about keeping each of these fish 1/2 of one degree out of their ideal range. Is that really that significant of a difference? Also, are the temp. ranges given on this site in fact *not* ideal temps? Perhaps I am misunderstanding that.

More in a few hours when I'm home to check the clown with the bumps.

[Emma Turner]

With regards to the temperatures, unfortunately, that is not a very good compromise. If you think of the temperatures as a 'target diagram' with the mid range of each fish as the 'bullseye' and each opposing side of the perimeter as the low and high of the range. A fish is usually more comfortable somewhere in the middle of their quoted range, so the weather loach would be best kept at approx 63 deg. It will tolerate the extremes (edges of the target) - as low as 50 and as high as 77 - but won't be comfortable being forced to permanently live at such temps. Then take the clowns, the mid range would be approx 80 deg C. Much lower than this, they often succumb to whitespot outbreaks. If you put the two target diagrams together, there is a very slight overlap of the ranges, but as you can see, it is far from the ideals of the weather loach long-term.

If you are unable to set up another FW tank, then you'd be best to think about keeping either a temperate or a tropical set-up and rehoming the fish that won't be living happily in the temperature range you choose.

Emma