Dissect Striata pictures & update

[shari2]

I think that may be more likely than Anthrax IMHO.........

[wasserscheu]

Thanks to everybody for contributing – very much appreciated. I´ll reply to your postings asap

I´ve come to the assumption of dealing with bacteria. Levimasol I´m currently not having a chance to get, I called a veterian (will call back after checking). Possibly with Furanlo (JBL) ingredient Nifurpirinol, I have that at home now.

Looks like I´m gone do the entire tank, most likely that´s what you would recommend, I guess.

In the meantime I lost 2 more striates, which showed no outer signs at all. The about 6” Rapahael cat (my daughters first and favority fish) was full of live, playing with loaches in new tank setup – now hanging there like a banana breathing relaxed, but appears almost dead.
His anal area shows some minor signs of inflammation – I guess Raphael ate one of the dead striates and got infected … I´m somewhat mad at myself…gambled at the wrong time…what a high price

[mikev]

Sorry for the problem you are having.

The speed of events points toward bacteria (or other small pathogens) indeed. Redness usually points to a bacteria (but the red on your original picture could have been caused by at least three other factors, no way to guess.)
[you still need a dewormer, but I think this is not an immediate issue]

I prefer Furan* type antibiotics as the first drug in cases where the diagnosis is uncertain. When the situation appears bad, treating with furan and simultaneously with neomycin or kanamycin is a good option; together they cover most of the common bacteria and these combinations are known.

If the disease is indeed BHS (I doubt this), the drugs will be cyclines: tetracycline, minocycline, and others. Maybe a good idea to have some on hand in case your first treatment regime does not work.

Yes, I'm afraid that you have to treat the entire tank: you know that the infection spread and you cannot assume that eating the dead fish is the only way it spreads.

Best of luck!

[wasserscheu]

Thanks again,

So I´ll go ahead with Furanol from JBL than right now…

I need to google and search for bhs, I did read Shari´s links …it does look similar…

[mikev]

You are very welcome.

Do go ahead with what you have, but let me mention that IME Furan is more effective against external infections rather than internals. Thus, a second antibiotic of the type I mentioned above should improve the odds.

I'd not lock myself into BHS yet: the type of redness shown on your picture may come from other causes.

One possibility is simply that the animal was lying on a stone when it died and the redness formed in the underbelly about the time of death or perhaps after the death. I've seen this a couple of times....

[shari2]

Wass, I'm sorry to hear of your losses. I know what it's like, and it's difficult, to say the least.

If I were you I'd go with the Nifurpirinol that you have. This is what I found online regarding it:

Nifurpirinol is a highly efficient preparation, which effectively combats most gram-positive and gram-negative bacteria, e.g. aeromonas, pseudomonas, corynebacterium, streptococci and many others, except for fish tuberculosis. JBL PondFuranol is well-tolerated, is absorbed very easily through the gills and can be found in therapeutically effective concentrations in all organs after only a few minutes.

It will kill off your beneficial bacterial colony in your filter. Be prepared for having to re-cycle your tank after (and possibly during) your treatment.
ie-you may have to do many small water changes, stock up on ammonia remover, and you should have a test kit on hand.

Hope this helps and you lose no more fish.
......................

mikev said:

One possibility is simply that the animal was lying on a stone when it died and the redness formed in the underbelly about the time of death or perhaps after the death. I've seen this a couple of times....

Mike, with all due respect, that is unlikely in the extreme given the circumstances. Do you really think that the dispersion of red patches shown in wass's photos could be caused by simply lying on a rock?

Please don't throw out random, ill-advised ideas as 'food for thought' when clearly there is convincing evidence that what he is looking at is a tank wide problem.

[mikev]

One possibility is simply that the animal was lying on a stone when it died and the redness formed in the underbelly about the time of death or perhaps after the death. I've seen this a couple of times....

Mike, with all due respect, that is unlikely in the extreme given the circumstances. Do you really think that the dispersion of red patches shown in wass's photos could be caused by simply lying on a rock?

It is unlikely but not impossible (and of course, I did look at the dispersion). Please do pay at least a minimal attention to my post before criticizing: the previous sentence was "...the type of redness shown on your picture may come from other causes. " I provided an example of one possible cause; I did not say this what is what happened.

Please don't throw out random, ill-advised ideas as 'food for thought' when clearly there is convincing evidence that what he is looking at is a tank wide problem.

Is it really necessary to go into high gear with "ill-advised"? The goal of this thread in my understanding is to help Wolfram, not continue an old fight in yet one more thread. It would be considerably more helpful to the OP if you explained why I'm wrong.

Please do clarify if "ill-advised" was coming from Shari-poster or Shari-moderator.

Now, back to the topic:
Do notice that while he is having a tank-wide problem, redness occurred only in one of -- I'm assuming -- 4 sick or dead animals (3 striatas, 1 rafael). Thus IME it is prudent to allow that the redness on the body may not be a symptom. Now, the redness around the vent is likely important.

[shari2]

Please do pay at least a minimal attention to my post before criticizing: the previous sentence was "...the type of redness shown on your picture may come from other causes. " I provided an example of one possible cause.

Please don't throw out random, ill-advised ideas as 'food for thought' when clearly there is convincing evidence that what he is looking at is a tank wide problem.

Is it really necessary to go into high gear with "ill-advised"? The goal of this thread in my understanding is to help Wolfram, not continue an old fight in yet one more thread. It would be considerably more helpful to the OP if you explained why I'm wrong.

Please do clarify if "ill-advised" was coming from Shari-poster or Shari-moderator.

Mikev.
Since you are clearly incapable of determining common social cues, and are equally unfamiliar with the role of a moderation team in a community forum allow me to state that my comment above was indeed coming from shari2 the moderator AND fellow community member. I am both. As such, I expect you to offer me the respect every other member here deserves.

Here we have yet another example of your inability to accept criticism and your penchant for ridiculing anyone who questions your comment. Your 'example' was ridiculously inappropriate.

If your goal truly is to help Wolfram, rather than simply attempt to disparage me, I require you to accept the fact that a moderator has disagreed with your foolhardy statement, pointed it out as such, and apologize or discontinue posting in this thread.

Now, back to the topic:
Do notice that while he is having a tank-wide problem, redness occurred only in one of -- I'm assuming -- 4 sick or dead animals (3 striatas, 1 rafael). Thus IME it is prudent to allow that the redness on the body may not be a symptom.

As for explaining why you are wrong? It would be pointless because you failed to recognize my point or my authority in the first place.

'Do notice', mike, that continuing pompous pontification and self-righteous justification for making a stupid remark does not make said remark any less stupid.

If you continue to question my right to address what I perceive to be problematic posting you will be asked to discontinue posting. Period.

[mikev]

......................
edited for lack of apology and continued obstinacy.
shari2

[wasserscheu]

Hi Shari and Mike,

Raphael starts moving again, and the remaining Striatas are a bit more lively as well. And I thank you both (and naturally everybody who posted on this) for helping me out.
I´ve learned to collect various opinions and additionally do my homework. For my part I can figure roughly, what is feasible and what not, even not being an expert.
I found it interesting in shari´s links, to read about the blood-lines at the fin-attachments, the first victim had that too. I basically was whatching the fist one die, so the bloodstains were not from floating blood inside of tissue (which can theoretically occur, like after breaking a bone or similar) however I feel bad about you getting in such disagreement due to my post – even though most other forums typically fight all the time … but I value both of your opinions and would really be happy if I could contribute to a handshake…in a team there will always be diverting forces, but we all should work hard, not to take those personally.

This forum has provided good care for me in a situation which I brought myself into (by keeping quarantine for not even full 2 weeks, that will never occur again – I healed in regards to gambling).

[shari2]

That's good news Wolfram. I'm glad the medicine seems to be working quickly.

As for the disagreement? It wasn't your thread that was the problem at all. My apologies for causing you any bad feelings. I hope things continue to improve for your fish.

[wasserscheu]

Thanks Shari.

[wasserscheu]

before you dissect your fish to look for (??) clues, (??) you might want to inquire with a local public aquarium or speak to a certified veterinarian

Dissecting with my limited skills would be just checking for worms and swollen organs. Swollen liver for example points to bacterial infection and thus calls for desinfecting the entire tank. And I`m just interested in what´s going on in such a big belly.

This is why we quarantine because problems are not always obvious.

I'm looking at these pictures and the red patches suggest to me some form of sepsis.

Martin.

Sorry about your nice bag full of kuhlis, I guess sometimes transportation causes trouble, even after point of sales. The weather over here is just dropping too cold at some times, perhaps some shipping was not adjustedc to that properly…
However I agree, sometimes you simply can´t see anything, my striatas were on the thin side though, I guess I made a mistake – should have left them there, after it´s always easier to have a clear mind…

I have learned my lesson re quarantine, unfourtunately there is sometimes a gap between what I know and what I do – at least I can serve as a bad example now…

Thought I'd throw this out there as if it is what you think you are dealing with you should treat the tank, pronto.

Thanks for the effective links and even your extra step checking the jbl ingredient. There is quit a bunch pointing into direction of BHS

Undetected heart problem,...

Not really matching the conversation... but I found that you see the heartbeat at Striatas similar to the hillstream-flat-type loaches ...

... My suggestion is to look over your filters well with eyes and nose...

Thanks, I did check, water was ok, except ph was up 7.6 (due to interrupted Co2 addition. This happenes while adding a new tank to the system) One filter was new - and still hat some odour (surprisingly even only 3 days after cleaning).

Open that stratia up, then we can know the cause and prevent such things from happening again.

Chen, I will do. I froze it for now, as I was short on time. I´ll post any pictures once I´ve made some

[cybermeez]

Since most everyone else has weighed in on this, what's one more? In my experience Striatas are very sensitive to water quality. Probably among the most sensitive of the Botias. A nitrate level that even clowns don't have a problem with I've seen stress Striatas to the point of illness and death. That being said, it's important to note that the nitrate was only the stressor that made the fish vulnerable to disease. Depending on what the pH was before the CO2 issue, that could have been the stressor since pH increases/decreases exponentially. If I'm remembering my high school chemisty correctly every point increase in pH means a 10 fold increase in alkalinity. A point decline is a 10 fold increase in acidity.

Bacterial Hemmorrhagic Septicimia (and its viral cousin) have been the scourge of catfish keepers for years. It's very difficult to treat because it attacks the interanl organs first and usually by the time the fish is showing any outward symptoms it's already too late. That hasn't stopped me from trying though.

A few years back I did manage to save a Corydoras trilineatus, but it took a month of treating with both Maracyns and cradling him in a net close to the water's surface. It was the equivalent of fishy ICU. The poor little fella couldn't right himself, but would eat flake if I put it right in front of his mouth. It went on for a month and one day I went to check on him and discovered he's jumpped out of the cradle and was happily swimming around the Q-Tank. The fact that he would take food even though he was ill was likely the difference between life and death for him. The little guy is still with me today. Most sick fish unfortunately won't eat meaning he's out lived many, many tankmates.

[wasserscheu]

… I asked them to hang in there… guess they misunderstood







Hi CM,

... Probably among the most sensitive of the Botias...

I also have that feeling, they behave different than Botine loaches, thea are cute though

... Depending on what the pH was before the CO2 issue, that could have been the stressor since pH increases/decreases exponentially. If I'm remembering my high school chemisty correctly every point increase in pH means a 10 fold increase in alkalinity. A point decline is a 10 fold increase in acidity…

I had my CO2-bottle out for refill during rearranging tanks… I have it on again now, I will meassure again tomorrow, but something like that coulod tick them off…

…Bacterial Hemmorrhagic Septicimia (and its viral cousin) have been the scourge of catfish keepers for years. It's very difficult to treat because it attacks the interanl organs first and usually by the time the fish is showing any outward symptoms it's already too late. That hasn't stopped me from trying though.

Yes, it´s to fast for BHS in my case…it looked very similar, but I guess it isn´t …

… The little guy is still with me today. Most sick fish unfortunately won't eat meaning he's out lived many, many tankmates.

I tried to cure some fish, but I was not as successful…as a teenager I cut the caudal of a guppy who had fin rotting, that helped it lived as lomg as a guppy lives… I respect your commitment towards your Cory very much