Loaches Online Forum

Well, mikev, I have printed up hillstream info for local fish stores and have had them take it seriously. Instead of writing them off, why don't you print up some info and give it to the store where you found your hillstreams?

I agree. Just type up your little info sheet, include Martin's article link for those who may (or may not) be interested and possibly educate someone.

If you do it nicely, in the spirit of sharing information out of concern for both their business rep and the sake of the fish, who'd object? So, if they throw it out...they throw it out. I'd hand it to the manager, tell him how much return business good husbandry brings in and bad husbandry/advice will lose, and hope for the best.

It will cost you what--maybe 5 minutes at the computer and a little ink. Since you go there anyway just bring it along on your next trip. Don't bring it with a supercilious attitude and you can begin to build a positive relationship out of mutual respect for the aquatic buisness and hobby. One day you may be brining them fish you've raised yourself and you'd want them to house them properly and disseminate the best info on their care, no?

I totally agree Jim and Shari, Most shops are receptive to advice and reasoned argument. For one reason or another the aquarium industry as a whole is completly ignorant of the basic requirements of this type of fish, and i think it is up to people like us to change that as far as is possible. Of course their are those retailers who will take no notice whatsoever. These people are clearly morons and should be named and shamed.
I feel a campaign comin on!

Jim Powers wrote: Instead of writing them off, why don't you print up some info and give it to the store where you found your hillstreams?

Because I actually did exactly this -- gave the hillstream artcile to the store during the time i was asking you about Gastros. It went straight into a pile of old articles with "Thank you, I'll read it later". Fish stores are businesses and I understand why they are not interested in investing much time in learning.

OK, here is the deal: if someone can write the text (few key sentences), I'll format a flier as a pdf, give it back to you, and we can all use it. (I'm not lazy -- I think you will write a better text than I can).

APPEND. If you decide to write it, consider saying something about putting hillstreams into a GF tank. I know that this is another thing being done, and I'm not fully sure just how bad this is.

Shari wrote:Since you go there anyway just bring it along on your next trip. Don't bring it with a supercilious attitude and you can begin to build a positive relationship out of mutual respect for the aquatic buisness and hobby.

The problem is not in the relationships (with the store I use most)...they are excellent. The problem is that most of advice I had to offer runs contrary to the perceived business interests of the store. Any advice on hillstreams, btw, will be: if you cannot simply dump hillstreams into a tropical tank, the store will be unable to sell them to most customers.

Do they keep any cold water fish? I'd bet they have a cold tank to keep feeders in that is off the tropical system...

if they wanted to keep/sell hillstreams they could easily set up a smaller tank on that system with a pwerhead, couple of rocks and feed algae wafers. Or they could continue to buy them and watch them die. Lots of profit in that, eh?

As for your idea of a flyer...

Keeping Hillstream Loaches for Beginners

Hillstream loaches come in different shapes and are called by various names in the trade including Butterfly loach, Borneo Sucker... (please add others here )

There are a variety of species becoming available recently but all share the same basic needs in their environment to thrive:

Strong current in the tank
Coolish temperature (please place temp range here)
High oxygen content
Proliferation of algae in their tank
Smooth large rocks as substrate

Hillstream loaches cannot tolerate a tropical community tank or a fishbowl. They generally get along well with other species of hillstreams or river fish but are not best kept in goldfish tanks.
....

An excellent article on these unique fish can be found online here:

http://www.loaches.com/hillstream_loaches.html

If anyone would like to add pictures of several common species please add them

Shari, thank a lot. Let this sit for a day, in case someone wants to add something, then I'll try to format it.

Do they keep any cold water fish? -- I did not think about it. Sure, they sell GF, I'll take a look at how the system is connected tomorrow.

Or they could continue to buy them and watch them die. Lots of profit in that, eh? -- they don't die quickly enough, this is the problem, they get sold to wrong tanks and then die. I don't want to hijack this thread, but I wrote about the latest KUSS case on the kuhli thread (100% dieout)...a good example of misunderstood profit.

Posted by Gary Herring: Wed Mar 15, 2006 8:41 am

I totally agree Jim and Shari, Most shops are receptive to advice and reasoned argument. For one reason or another the aquarium industry as a whole is completly ignorant of the basic requirements of this type of fish, and i think it is up to people like us to change that as far as is possible. Of course their are those retailers who will take no notice whatsoever. These people are clearly morons and should be named and shamed.
I feel a campaign comin on!

I totally agree with this Gary. In fact, I am in the final stages of writing a factsheet on hillstream loaches for our customers to take away and read. This is in addition to the in-depth labelling at our store which I take great pride in. I am also hoping to get this article added to the library section on our website too. Martin knows of this, as a while back I asked him for permission to use some of his great pics and diagram of his wonderful manifold design, to which he very kindly agreed.

Emma

That's a good fact sheet , Shari. We just need to fill in the blanks and it will be ready to go. I would suggest a temp range of 70-75F, and add names like lizard fish and Hong Kong pleco to the list. Also, I am not quite sure if you should rule out housing hillstreams with goldfish. If the goldfish are small and the hillstreams used are bolder species like Pseudogastromyzon cheni and fasciatus, and the tank is well filtered, I think it would be okay. Timid species might not fare so well. I think we need Martin's input before anything is finalized, however.
It might be a good idea to come up with basic fact sheets like this for all the loach groups. People could check out the site and print up these fact sheets to keep or give to local fish stores.

By the way, Emma, its too bad more fish store operators aren't like you. The hobby would be much better if they were.

My additions/revisions. I've tried to KISS

Keeping Hillstream Loaches for Beginners

Hillstream loaches come in different shapes and are called by various names in the trade including Butterfly loach, Borneo Sucker, Hong-Kong Plecos, etc. The same names may be applied to numerous species. All species come from fast flowing streams in the wild.

Because of this, all species share the same basic needs in their environment to thrive:

Strong current in the tank provided by powerheads.
Cooler temperature than many "tropical" fish (68-75F) .
High oxygen content either by powerhead venturi or supplemental aeration.
Proliferation of algae in their tank, encouraged by bright lighting.
Smooth large rocks as decor over a rounded gravel substrate.

Hillstream loaches cannot tolerate a tropical community tank or a fishbowl. They generally get along well with other species of hillstreams or river fish but should not be kept in goldfish tanks.
....

An excellent article on these unique fish can be found online here:

http://www.loaches.com/hillstream_loaches.html

Martin.

Also, I am not quite sure if you should rule out housing hillstreams with goldfish. If the goldfish are small and the hillstreams used are bolder species like Pseudogastromyzon cheni and fasciatus, and the tank is well filtered, I think it would be okay.

It is certainly would be best in terms of the flier acceptance if you don't rule out goldfish totally; it would give most stores a viable option of selling hillstreams (otherwise, a new specialized tank is required for everyone). I know someone who does this (with Gastros) but have no idea about the long-term effect.

OK, let me try to format Martin's text.

I do think the common name "lizard fish" and "gecko fish" should be included since there are several non "sucker-belly" type hillstreams commonly available.

I think something like this at the end:

Good tankmates include White Clouds and several Danio species.

Maybe a sentence on food too?

Ok, I formatted something preliminary and emailed to Martin for criticism. I'll fix it up later, it is easier to do when the text is final.
Let me know if I should be emailing it to all or put it somewhere?

Wow, when you guys get an idea you really get stuff done. Whatever you do with it, I want a copy to give to my LFS, if you don't mind.

The suggestion about food is a good one, if you don't mind me chiming in. Too many people think theres nothing they can do if their fish won't eat flakes, and even more think as long as it has a "sucker mouth" it doesn't need to be fed because it eats all that invisible algae in the tank.

Yes, unfortunately, anything that lives on the bottom of the tank is often thought to eat only waste food and other fishes waste.

The recommended tankmates is a good idea too.