Loaches Online Forum

I've looked at and handled a LOT of internal fish anatomy, since I used to be a fisherman (for king salmon, halibut, and trout). So I know fairly well the layout of the internal organs and what is or isn't normal.

Here are my thoughts. That swim bladder probably inflated after death. Opening up the fish and pulling that bladder out might have made it blow up, too, if it was exposed to differing air pressures. I noticed, after cleaning fish, the air bladders would be fairly bloated. This is just a possibly... I don't think this was the cause of death.

That stomach looks pretty awful. All that red should NOT be there. That looks like blood from bursting capillaries. I think this internal bleeding killed the fish. It was probably some sort of bacteria that caused internal stomach bleeding and maybe the release of some other fluids into the stomach. The tightness of the stomach and the translucency makes me think it was blood as well as some other fluid that flooded the stomach. That much blood loss almost certainly led to death. Now to just find the culprit, which might be bacterial, or even parasitic.

Did you by chance open the stomach? And yes, the stomach should be a light pink/light gey/light yellow color, depending on the fish.

The other thing I'm seeing is the total lack of waste in the fish's intestine. Was this fish not eating when you got him? I think you said he was only eating bloodworms. But if that's the case, I still find it really odd that there's no waste in the intestine. I wonder if something in the stomach was blocking the intestine, and this blockage got bad enough that it cause the rupturing of stomach capillaries? If so, then it may not be directly bacteria-related...

The final thing I want to say is that the extended spine is not disease related, not at all in my opinion. I think the poor little guy was having a lot of pain before he died, and that's why the spine shot out. I see, if my loaches are panicked or in some sort of pain (like a twinge or muscle spasm) their spines will shoot out. That's why I think it was pain that caused that.

I hope this helps you.

Thanks a lot for this very detailed report Icewall, excellent observations. I actually was also hoping for a reply of a fisherman, as that sport is quite popular in USA/Canada.

Icewall42 wrote:…
Did you by chance open the stomach? And yes, the stomach should be a light pink/light gey/light yellow color, depending on the fish.

Unfortunately I didn’t. What part is the stomach? I noticed also something wrong with food processing right away, but was having no idea to sort out what was what… even though I tried…was too different to the fish I ever prepared for cooking …

I noticed though, there was one “string” ending at a “wet spot”, I´m assuming that organ was dissolved (*) completely, or I broke the string off accidentally (rather not). Could you possibly advice, of any missing organ? The pic´s show everything that was in that poor fish, all was rather little, so no food?
* I had that with the male Colisa, the liver was there, but the consistency so mushy , that cutting was not necessary/possible. The females, had a “cut-able” consistency. Amazing, that the Colisa was living and after medication even eating again, until some organ got mush…

Icewall42 wrote:…Was this fish not eating when you got him? I think you said he was only eating bloodworms. But if that's the case, I still find it really odd that there's no waste in the intestine. I wonder if something in the stomach was blocking the intestine …

When the guys were in quarantine, I watched them for increasing belly after eating, And that was successful, unless some were hiding – but I would not have missed 4 (out of 10). They refused flakes, pellets, shrimps, only took bloodworms, blackworms (I gave also).

Seeing my Stiphodon puke sand occasionally, I was wondering, whether those particular Striatas may have had not sufficient skill, to deal with that fine sand, I have in there (0.25 mm seed size) and it’s 2 times heavier than normal sand. But I guess we can rule that out, as botine’s typically sift sand…

Icewall42 wrote:…
The final thing I want to say is that the extended spine is not disease related, not at all in my opinion…

I was just curios what they looked like, I extended them “manually”. What I was very surprised about, I was not possible to “over-bend/extend” the spines. On one spine I tried to break it by overloading (to the front of the fish). Wanted to break out the mechanism, so I could check for any possible locking device, etc. I tried hard, but the spine was so well “mounted” in the head, it would not break out of the structure. If those guys have the option to use it, it will be effective. I also noticed, that it not only punctures, moving the sharp tip backwards, it can cut skin…

I´m checking carefully for any new losses, so far I lost 2 more kuhli, I didn’t find any Striata corpse, but when hiding it will be hard to spot. I’ve counted about almost all of them occasional, but may have double counted some (they never school all in one school)…

I have the feeling they stabilize though, they go more frequently into the current/flow, look for food right away, over all size seems to get fatter. Some where skinny, when I bought them – that should have alerted me – I was too greedy ( A fish is sound, when nice and round )

Thanks a lot for this very detailed report Icewall, excellent observations. I actually was also hoping for a reply of a fisherman, as that sport is quite popular in USA/Canada.

Well, let's just say that when I was fishing, I had a particular interest in how the insides of a fish looked and worked. Only thing is that such a small fish is a bit tricky for me, because bigger fish are just a little easier to differentiate organs.

Unfortunately I didn’t. What part is the stomach? Embarassed I noticed also something wrong with food processing right away, but was having no idea to sort out what was what… even though I tried…was too different to the fish I ever prepared for cooking …

It does look just a little different, since the smallest fish I ever cleaned were herring. But the stomach, I can say, was that bigger organ with all the red and visible capillaries. The intestine is usually a straight tube coming off the stomach that is positioned all the way against the back of the fish's cavity before connecting with the vent. I don't know if you recall, but when you pulled out the stomach, if there was a stringy sort of membrane that came with it and seemed to be connected to something near the back of the cavity. That's the intestine, and it should almost always have some waste in it.

The heart would have been very close to the head. It is usually nestled in the flesh just in front of the pectoral fins. In a fish like that it'd be very, very tiny. I'd be surprised if you found it. It also does NOT come out with the cavity guts unless you go search for it. In bigger fish like salmon, it will sometimes slip out on its own. In trout, I've very rarely pulled it out with the guts, but if you do find it, it will usually be connected by some stringy membranes to the front portion of the guts.

Yeah.... I didn't see the liver. Usually the liver is easy to find because it will almost always be much darker (like dark purple) than the rest of the organs, and it will be a very dense organ. I think, if there's a spleen, it would look this way as well. In either case, these organs are usually darker than the rest of the organs.

What color was the mush? Maybe it's the missing liver. The liver is susceptible to some nasty things since its job is to process out toxins. Perhaps something attacked that, too? If anyone sees something that I'm not seeing, let us know!

It's possible that the striata might have swallowed some sand on accident, and that's what blocked the entrance of the intestine and caused the backup that eventually burst some capillaries? It's hard to say.

Well it's better to hear you extended those spines on your own. I've seen some loaches die with them poking out, and I feel really bad about it. those are some neat observations about them.

Here's a website about salmon dissection that you may find somewhat useful, but be advised that a loach body might be a little different, and there are some pictures a sensitive person may not want to see (though the kids doing the dissections seem interested. They're Alaskan, just like me!):

http://www.sf.adfg.state.ak.us/region2/ ... ssectn.cfm

I hope all goes better for you.

Wolfram, I'm sorry you are losing fish but thank you for showing your disection pics. I've learned some interesting stuff. I sometimes wonder if I'd learn anything useful opening up my dead fish. With my limited knowledge of what "normal" looks like & no access to lab equipment, I haven't bothered. It helps being emotionally removed from the death too, I'm know it's difficult to deal with an ongoing unknown "plague". I hope you are back to a healthy tank soon.

Thanks again Icewall, I like the picture with the kids being busy XXX

The heart I guess I found (on the left upper corner on the first pic below). I could see it beating on live striates (right between the pelvic fins… looks similar to Sewellia and Gastro´s, I was surprised, to see that after I bought them…).

Stomach, once you mentioned the connection to the intestines, is clear now too (2nd pic below).

I the 3rd pic below, I show the “missing organ” in case there were really one missing. I do indeed hope, that the liver is still there, somewhere in that compact bunch… there is some darker stuff, that may be it. (In case the liver were dissolved, like on my colisa, that meant, I´ll know in a year, whether I´ve reached “clean point” or not. Any of my possible infected fish may take that long until death? That´s for long I watched my Colisa´s belly grow. Only at final stage he was breathing heavy (last 3 months, partiall in quarantine and under meducation. Med. made him eat again, but only a few bites before his last one). What I was reading about that, there were hardly any cure for it…So it´s NOT that PERIOD

wasserscheu wrote:More inner…starting with the heart (I guess)

NancyD wrote:Wolfram, ... I've learned some interesting stuff. I sometimes wonder if I'd learn anything useful opening up my dead fish.

Thanks Nancy, I was actually somewhat concerned about posting those pic´s. I feel better once you wrote your note.
Re. Lab. stuff, I´m using my kids microscope and coincidentally the normal (compact) camera makes not too bad pictures, put right on the microscope (even zoom works). Bacteria can be made visible already at X-200 (which is the smaller adjustment…). It´s more the time needed, getting smart on things and scan available data to compare…

I´ll see if I can find an old video and I´ll post a worm, that I had in the tank years ago (and most lkely have, Red Neons like to eat it, I got in with tubifex – once and only livefood…you know the story). I made a video under the microscope and found with comparing data that they are harmless).

sorry, could not get the worm-video loaded,

pic´s of the worm under a cheap microscope I put here:

http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php?p=92384#92384

Now that I'm seeing those pictures again, yeah, you might be right... that top one might be showing the heart. It just seemed a little big for a striata, but if you saw it beating in other loaches, you may be eight. And it seems to be positioned right, as well.

The second picture is the one I mostly looked at before to judge the abnormalities of the stomach and the intestine.

The third one... I'm sorry to say that I'm still a bit clueless I still don't really see the liver. Usually it sits a bit behind the stomach, not on top or in front of it. Maybe it just didn't come out of the body with the rest of the organs??

Wolfram- I also have been happy to see your detailed pictures and to learn a bit of anatomy from Icewall42. Thanks to both of you. When/if (wishful thinking) my fish die I will now have some idea what I am looking at.

I'm glad to be of any help. Keep a close watch on the other fish, because if this these symptoms keep showing up, it's very likely that this one wasn't a fluke and that you've got some internal bacteria on your hands. This is miserable when it occurs So I hope it's not an infestation.

I´m still working on a chart similar to the one in this German link

http://shop.ulmer.de/Artikel.dll/lexiko ... _10666.PDF

found that preview to this book quite good.

SUMMARY of loss:

So far the Striatas are still stable. There were specimen from 3 different stores. One (the smallest) was the first one, it is the coolest one. 2 very well build (slightly fat) ones I´ve added as "imagemakers" for the thin ones (after a while). To "fight" the "we all will die" mood amongst the thin Striatas - just wanted to have some strong leaders in the gang to make them feel protected (I´m impressed by myself, with what excuses I can come up with, for not resisting to buy loaches...) It´s a group of nine now.
The specimen above, was the last one I lost. However I´ve lost my 2 original normal P. Kuhlis and 10 + 6 new ones (from different stores. As well as different appearance of the 2 groups). So I guess it was the Kuhlies, who brought stuff in... whatever...
My recent addition of the black kuhli I moved to the main system. My 2 oríginal cinnamon Pangio oblongas did survive all that, so far.

I burned my budged, so no more fish for while ( and no shrimps, no plants, no stones no no no )

I did not forget this therad yet, however did not find good pictures of anatomy without ©.

This link however, is a wikipedia.de one, thus hoping nobody minds showing it here.

http://wiki.aquarium-stammtisch.de/inde ... der_Fische




1. Schwanzflosse
2. Rückenflosse
3. Schwimmblase ------ swim bladder
4. Wirbelsäule
5. Weberscher Apparat
6. Innenohr
7. Gehirn
8. Nasenöffnung
9. Barteln
10. Kiemenapparat
11. Herz ------ heart
12. Magen ------ stomach
13. Brustflossen
14. Gallenblase ------ gall bladder
15. Leber ------ liver
16. Milz ------ milt
17. Darm ------ intestine
18. Bauchflossen
19. Geschlechtsorgane ------ sexual organ
20. Anus
21. Genitalpapille
22. Harnröhre
23. Afterflosse