Loaches Online Forum

Ashleigh- Well said. I had been thinking along similar lines as I caught up with this thread. The risks to Earth's ecosystem are very real and very serious. Hybridization in order to obtain a food supply for starving people could possibly be justified, but hybridization for the sake of profit is very sad indeed.

I was going to say something but Ashleigh spoke for me too. Nothing to add.

Oliv,
Are the hybrids viable? Are parrot or flowerhorn cichlids viable?
Honestly...? i have no particular problem with trying this out, particularly if success with this allows financial freedom enough to start really pumping out nice, pure-bred animals to take pressure off unsustainable wild harvests such as Bala sharks etc... This is why the asiatic arawana still exists in the wild at all- because the captive bred ones are nicer.
Ultimately these sorts of private trials will bring Oliv to a better understanding of the breeding process so he can teach us and again, take the pressure off the wild stocks. I won't be buying a hybrid -save those for the plebs at Petsmart- but call when the naturals come out.
A

Ashleigh wrote:

ckk125 wrote:i've also been following this thread ever since it started...

Im on the fence with this...but man made hybridization will not be stopped unless certain rules are made to stop it.-like human cloning.

Oliv is a fish breeder and his mind is mainly focussed on making money and earn a living...legally, there is nothing wrong. his knowledge, his skill and his fish.

Flowerhorns, Arowanas, rtc, tsn, and glofish are some of the man made fish and look how much money was made from it?

It will not stop unless a rule is made. Sometimes in this world, money talks.

Just because there is no rule, does not justify it, nor make it right.

Hybrid organisms that are created by man for no reason but for pure pleasure is completly wrong. The fish and creatures in our world are here the way they are due to many many years of adaptation and evolution to suit their specific environment. Playing around with genetics with the possibility of them spawning/breeding with natural populations could have the possibility of clearing out complete populations in areas and possibly entire species.

Granted, in studying the genetic effects of salmon aquaculture on wild salmon populations, it is very worrying indeed what the consequences are if these fish escape-which they do. The fish are bred for our convenience to have a farm adapt suitability-yes we can see why they do it, but it does not make it right.

Oliv has capabilities to bring positive changes in helping to conserve pure species, and I wish he could see it, if you have a talent you should put it to good use. You are right, they are no rules saying what Oliv is doing is wrong, but many aquarists, that will be the ones purchasing and obviously giving Oliv their money disagree with it, few people want hybrids in the trade, the fact is the many inexperienced don't know better, they just see something different to have.

Ashleigh

Did i say it is right or wrong?

Anyway, there is nothing you can do. if Oliv wants to carry such things out. it is perfectly legal.

The word ethics and conservation shouldn't be used as we all know what fish keeping has done to the wild. Fish keeping by itself is deemed unethical by most people.

No point flaming people here. This is a place to share knowledge, if it is not the knowledge you seek, then better to ignore it. win-win situation.

Wow this is some crazy stuffs here. It's a controversial issue so I won't even try to argue.

They already made these Glow fish and selectively bred un-natural shape fishes - imagine what the aquarium fishes would be like in next 500 years...

That's the thing... 500 years shortened to five months in the hands of some Frankenstein...

No thanks.

Hey,

In Poland we have for 4-5 months a rumour passed around about a Russian breeder who is attempting to receive a Clown Loach without black stripes. Just pure golden Clown - they will do it for sure. Russia got a lot of experienced breeders. Yup they produce a lot of hybrids for years, many years abd they will continue this production for sure. Saying that western countries are not aware of this is ignorance for me. The truth is an unexperience hobbyst will fail and buy this human-made mutant. But today when almost 90% of ppl got an fast internet in houses he will show it on forum where someone will tell him a truth - it is not fish you wanted - it is a mutant. I hate hybrids and hate when young hobbyst buy for example a Synodontis (I am much more into catfishes than in loaches) as a Synodontis multipunctatus; pay a lot of money for a breeding group and after 2-3 months he get big, aggressive mutant. And you know what he will say? Hey Synos sucks. They do not school, they are agressive, they eat like pigs and did outgrow my tank just in 2 months and killed all my precious Xenotilapia. And he will not buy a Syno never ever in the future. More, he will spread a word about totally agressive and not worth keeping multipunctatus. And that really sucks!

ckk125 wrote: Did i say it is right or wrong?

Anyway, there is nothing you can do. if Oliv wants to carry such things out. it is perfectly legal.

The word ethics and conservation shouldn't be used as we all know what fish keeping has done to the wild. Fish keeping by itself is deemed unethical by most people.

No point flaming people here. This is a place to share knowledge, if it is not the knowledge you seek, then better to ignore it. win-win situation.

Thank you Chen!

Chen has a good point after all.

I mean if you go to a FS you'll find goldfish with two tails bulging eyes etc.

If some unexperienced hobbiest is happy to bring them home it is better that he gets those rather than stock taken from nature.

We are talking about fish which will always remain in captivity.

I'm more concerned about the project of tropical fish capable to live in cold waters. This should be banned IMO or strictly controlled to avoid the dangers that Ashleigh mentioned.

In any case I would still be interested to know what Oliv will achieve.

About what money there is a speech?
Hybrid fry all about pair hundreds, and this fish will not go on sale, can be only I shall give a part for work to familiar fish breeders
Now my purpose to receive the second generation
I shall wait while hybrids will grow up, I think on it will leave much less 8 years (that time how many to me was necessary to wait for achievement of a sexual maturity thoroughbred wild female), it would be desirable year one and a half
Then I shall impregnate once again caviar from brought up female a hybrid thoroughbred male the Clown to receive as the best splitting aside is possible for a clean line that you see on some photos Asian as though wild Clowns, at them the same technologies
I liked words of one person on this site, he has told, whether not too much I give information to simple factory owners of aquarian fishes?
Can it is valid much and it be not become interesting to you to communicate?

PS. Mark in Vancouver it is completely right, I try to win time

Please also see here "PFK: Breeder produces Clown loach hybrids" http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/p ... ?news=1687

and here "PFK: What would you rather buy? Hybrid or wild?" http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/p ... blogid=184

Emma

Emma Turner wrote:Please also see here "PFK: Breeder produces Clown loach hybrids" http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/p ... ?news=1687

and here "PFK: What would you rather buy? Hybrid or wild?" http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/p ... blogid=184

Emma

Me interests what fish you consider under a word wild?

PS. http://www.planetcatfish.com/shanesworl ... cle_id=269
Heok Hee Ng has made not a bad material, but it is very unequivocal, many hybrid lines now are made, and at times to identify rather difficultly that you have in general, tell about it to you that person which it can only has made
I very much for a long time am engaged in hybridization Sinodontis, believe

Granted Oliv that you have never actually stated that you are out to make money, but all hybrids that have come into the aquarium trade have come around as a sort of ‘novelty’ to people, carrying high price tags to start with which people are willing to pay to have something different, now, those that entered a few years ago are worthless.

andyroo wrote: Oliv,
Are the hybrids viable? Are parrot or flowerhorn cichlids viable?
Honestly...? i have no particular problem with trying this out, particularly if success with this allows financial freedom enough to start really pumping out nice, pure-bred animals to take pressure off unsustainable wild harvests such as Bala sharks etc... This is why the asiatic arawana still exists in the wild at all- because the captive bred ones are nicer.
Ultimately these sorts of private trials will bring Oliv to a better understanding of the breeding process so he can teach us and again, take the pressure off the wild stocks. I won't be buying a hybrid -save those for the plebs at Petsmart- but call when the naturals come out.
A

Complete and utter rubbish. Yes you may relieve a fish species from fishing pressure, but those fishermen rely on that income to feed their families, do you really think that will stop fishing? No, they need the money so they will concentrate their efforts on catching the next viable species that will give their family that income they lost when the first species was not in demand anymore due to captive breeding/hybridization etc. Fishing pressure is just redirected to another species, not reduced.

I mean, everyone agrees with fish faming, yes yes we are saving wild stocks, but the large proportion of farmed species are carnivorous; fish meal that they eat is mad up of small planktivorous fish-fishing pressure that was on wild stocks that are not being farmed, is now moved to the prime fish food source, why, because these people have a living to earn. Fact, fishing pressure will not be reduced just because a species is not in demand, the pressure will just be directed at another species, and when that population is decimated, then another one…. it continues on and there is no stopping it unless you actually pay these people to stop (which they have done in some areas).

It is difficult just to reduce fishing pressure completely; a lot of people rely on catching wild fish for aquarium trade to survive in some countries. The reason captive breeding is important is to help along those species to recover that fishermen have already decimated.

Also why must Oliv have a better understanding? He obviously knows what he is doing; he has managed to breed pure clown loach, so how is hybridization going to improve his understanding of breeding pure species…..

ckk125 wrote: Did i say it is right or wrong?

Anyway, there is nothing you can do. if Oliv wants to carry such things out. it is perfectly legal.

The word ethics and conservation shouldn't be used as we all know what fish keeping has done to the wild. Fish keeping by itself is deemed unethical by most people.

No point flaming people here. This is a place to share knowledge, if it is not the knowledge you seek, then better to ignore it. win-win situation

No you did not say right or wrong, but you did say you were on the fence about it. Its difficult to refrain from sharing opinions about this, it is a very debatable topic, but it is infuriating that when there is someone who can make a difference and won’t try, I apologise if that came across as directed at you personally, it was not.

I know there is nothing I can do, even Gordon Brown has passed hybridization of animals and humans for medical study the other week; fish are low low down on the list.

The only way hybridization will cease is if there is no demand, which there is because;

There will always be one person that wants something different that no one else has/seen before. There will always be curiosity, a few of you have stated that you are interested to see how this turns out even though you do not potentially agree with it; human mind is curious, far to curious in some cases and do not know when they have gone to far.

Hybridization; I don’t agree with, but I can live with it, though hybridization of two fish species to produce something that has the potential to cause disaster if it were to escape, now that’s a worry.

Wild fish being kept for our own pleasure, sure that’s another debatable topic, this in itself is taking wild fish and altering them, not as nature had intended; that brings in issues that are beyond our complete control.

No more to say on this issue, it is going in a way that will turn into something many would not like to get into. Maybe breeders will see sense someday



Ashleigh

Ashleigh, excuse, at me not important with English, I a little that have understood from your post
The hybrids are really viable and are capable to continuation of a sort, though there was a considerable part weak and ugly fry
Rate of growth of hybrids very high, for 20 days the largest of them have grown up to 2 sm, thoroughbred Clowns all 7mm
Money undoubtedly interests me, any work should be paid
Hybrids a very valuable genetic material for me and any selector, why - I have explained in two retorts little bit above, the fish acting in sale from the Asian farms has approximately same genetic essence, itself more than once bought under a kind of a thoroughbred fish of hybrids, ordering a fish for itself from very known firms in particular of Germany, to learn about it yet will not receive posterity it is impossible, actually and all that I wanted to tell, the reflections concerning ethics do not interest me, I do not adhere in the craft of philosophical sights

Ashleigh,

"Complete and utter rubbish. Yes you may relieve a fish species from fishing pressure, but those fishermen rely on that income to feed their families, do you really think that will stop fishing? No, they need the money so they will concentrate their efforts on catching the next viable species that will give their family that income they lost when the first species was not in demand anymore due to captive breeding/hybridization etc. Fishing pressure is just redirected to another species, not reduced. "

Arguable? yes. Rubbish? A strong, misdirected and inappropriate word i'm sure was chosen in passion. There is a lot more to this issue- the market is not going away, so come up with better ideas. On this forum we often argue responsibilities within the industry and it has on many occasions been said that members of this forum would pay more for responsibly/sustainable produced/harvested animals. I'd suggest that propagation and even what Oliv is up to reduces overall pressure, even if redirecting much of it. Some fish see/suffer wild harvests that are sustainable, and responsible harvest can be used as a conservation tool for species or habitats.
And yes, in the absence of a market they will stop fishing.
There's more.
A