Long battle with Ich...I need help

[Tay690]

Ok, so where to begin

I noticed Ich popped up about 2 months ago
I used Kordon's Ich Attack for an entire month and it seemed to be gone except for 4 spots that did not drop off on my biggest Clown Loach

In the tank I have 6 clown loaches (5/6 are about 2 inches but the big guy is about 4 inches) and 4 Albino Cory's

Before the Ich Attack treatment was finished all the fish had absolutely no signs of any spots whatsoever except the big guy

I was siphoning EVERY single night (which got to be rather tedious and was affecting my work...BUT I DID IT)

And it remained like this for about another 4 weeks...I was told to try Garlic Guard as that one loaches immune system might not be strong enough to push out those last 4 spots

Used the garlic guard (and had not used Ich Attack the entire time...about a 4 week span) and the big guy shook off 2/4 spots

I continued using the garlic guard with no further results...he had 1 spot on his nose and 1 on his tail fin

Oh I forgot to mention the temperature the entire 2 months this way going on has been 84

During the 4 weeks without using the Ich attack and specifically garlic guard with feedings...the Ich did not spread to any other occupants in the tank nor did it spread on the big guy

I did a large WC about 5 days ago to get rid of the brownish colouration the Ich Attack leaves in your water

2 days after the large WC (about 40%) the ich has spread again...but only on the big clown loach

the rest of the occupants again are unnaffected...and all are acting normally except the biggest Clown ... he just hides all day in his cave while the others forage for food and school etc

I'm now using Salt + heat method and have bumped my temp up to 86

day 2 of the treatment 4/8 spots on the big guy have dropped off (including the stubborn spots that sat on him for 4 weeks)

I'm really at my whits end here and I have a lot of questions to which I cannot find answers...

Why did it spread now? originally I thought those last 4 stubborn spots were exit wounds and they seemed to be so because of the fact it didn't spread for 4 weeks...then the big WC and boom it spreads only on the big guy again

Am I doing something wrong?

I really don't want to lose my big loach...he's my favourite by far...he has the best personality and he keeps the tankmates in check

The only thing that I can think of...and I'm fairly new to fishkeeping so it might not even be relevant whatsoever

is the fact that the big guy hides in his cave all day long (in the interior of peaks...barely enough room for him to squeeze himself into)

I'm assuming when the cysts are being dropped...they're dropping into the bottom of the cave (because they can only fall off that one specific fish as he is the only host in the tank with visual illness) and when they hit their free swimming stage...they rise up into the interior of the peaks inside the cave...where the big guy sits all day long

That's all I can think of...

I was referred here after 3 threads 4 pages long...I'm stumped and there are a lot of things that don't make sense here

Please help me get rid of this "Super Ick"

And thanks for making a loach specific forum
I see I'm not the only one that thinks they are the best freshwater species to keep for many obvious reasons

Sincerely,
Taylor
Then 2 days after the big WC the Ich has spread again...Why I don't know

[Holdstrong]

Reading your post was like Deja vu for me. I went through (and believe it or not, I think I am still going through) something very similar.

You can read about it here: http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php?t=18171

There is some great info provided in that thread about different strains of Ich and different treatment methods.

I wish I could tell you what finally worked for me, but I am on round two of Salt + Heat after spotting another ich spot on a Platty and just last night I noticed a loach and a barb flashing like mad.

I've gone through 2 full bottles of rid ich+, half a bottle of the organic ich attack, 1 small drop bottle of Ich Cure, and almost an entire box of kosher salt. The tank looks like hell right now, the plants are all dying, and I am just about at my personal water change limit... So I sympathize with ya!

Give that thread a read and I am sure some of the more experienced forum goers will be here to chime in.

[chefkeith]

Tay690- I think you are on the right track. The big loach probably reinfected itself for the very reason you described, which is that the ich stayed in the cave.

It does sound like the super strain of ich that is going around where the cystic spots can last 2-3 weeks. In this case the treatment will have to be kept up for about a month after the last ich spot is seen and the salt dosage will have to be higher than normal, about 1 tablespoon of salt per gallon of water. That's probably the only way to break the cycle without killing the fish.

[Tay690]

Ok update time

The Ich has spread pretty bad on the big loach...he's got about 10 spots or so that I can see now

Did my weekly WC last night and added salt to get the total consistency of the salt to 1tsp per gallon

removed all the cavelike ornaments (lets see if my assumption pans out)

the loaches seem a bit distressed cuz they have absolutely nowhere to hide...but I figure a full blown ich outbreak will stress them a lot more

all of the troublesome spots that didn't move for 3 weeks have fallen off

but again there are about 10 new spots on his body left and right side under his dorsal fin

I'll keep my fingers crossed...I want to get to the bottom of this once and for all

Thanks again for the input,
Taylor

[Tay690]

Just finished reading that thread...I feel bad for you
I'm complaining and I haven't even lost anything yet

there is a lot of good info in that thread
a lot of info that I have never even seen before nor heard of

It seems exactly like what I'm going through...

I'm wondering if I should bump my salt consistency to 2 teaspoons per gallon?

[chefkeith]

I usually recommend 2 teaspoons per gallon, but in the toughest cases about 3 teaspoons might be necessary.

Here's a paragraph from one of the most popular ich articles on the net-

"The dosage needed for this is 1-3 teaspoons per actual gallon of water. One strain of Ich has been reported to withstand as much as 5 parts per thousand of salt* so do not rely on light salt dosage to be 100% effective. Most strains will succumb to low levels of salt though
My personal recommendation is 2 tsp. per gallon as a target. This gives me a good solid level with a 1 tsp. per gallon buffer zone in both directions. In other words I can be 1 tsp. per gallon higher than I think I am and my fish should be OK, or I can be 1 tsp. per gallon lower than I think I am and my ich will still die. Many people do quite well with 1 teaspoon per gallon but I don?t like variables so I go higher. This buffer zone is more necessary with hobbyists who don?t know the actual (vs. estimated) water volume of their tank."

http://www.badmanstropicalfish.com/foru ... pic=1285.0

[Tay690]

thank you very much
you have been most helpful

I will bump it up to 2 tsp per gallon tonight and drip it over the next 48 hours so the loaches don't get too stressed

with the problems I'm having erradicating this...do you think it's worth it to bump it up to 3 tsp per gallon

or wait a couple of days and see how 2 tsp per gallon works?

I'm just worried with how bad it spread overnight with the 1tsp per gallon that maybe the ich has some resistance to the salt treatment already

I feel good though...like i'm on the right track

all the ornaments have been removed so I can put an end to the "Should we remove cavelike ornaments during an ich treatment" question I've been asking for 2 months

I can almost guarantee that has more to do with the situation I'm facing than anything else I've mentioned

[chefkeith]

The dosage question is something that can only be answered with certainty in hindsight. It might take about a month to know if 1 or 2 teaspoons per gallon was enough salt if the ich cysts stay on the fish for up to 3 weeks.

Some of the dosage depends on how the fish are holding up and how diligent you are at keeping the fish healthy. #1 is that you can't let the water quality deteriorate when doing treatments like this. Nitrates and organic matter need to be kept at a minimum level. Frequent small water changes (with the proper salt dosage), gravel vac's, and filter cleanings will make the treatment more effective. Some fresh activated carbon in the filter would help remove remaining contaminants left in the water also. You'll need to change the carbon every few days though. Also at #1 is that oxygen must remain at high levels. There needs to be plenty of surface agitation to insure that oxygen exchange stays high. The stronger the fish are, the better chance they'll have.

It probably wouldn't hurt to give the loaches a large cave or pipe to rest in. Something that is large enough so that water can circulate in it.


To completely prevent future reinfections, any new fish brought home would then need a prophylactic treatment for ich in a quarantine tank for 3-6 weeks. That's whether you see any ich spots or not.

The reason why ich outbreaks are so hard to prevent is because most ich spots will stay hidden in the gills where you can't see them. Fish keepers may have low level ich infestations in their tanks, but just don't know it. The ich can go unnoticed at low levels indefinitely. The ich spots usually only become noticeable when the fish get stressed, like from large water changes or adding new fish. That's another reason why quarantining is not fool proof; because ich might already be in the main tank.

[Diana]

That's another reason why quarantining is not fool proof; because ich might already be in the main tank.

This is also why fish in an aquarium where nothing new has been added that could possibly carry Ich can still have an outbreak of Ich when the fish experience some stress. There is Ich already present, but unstressed fish can handle an ich or so now and then, and fight off most of them. When fish are stressed, though, their immune system is not able to handle it, and Ich or other parasites or diseases can move in. Many of the bacteria that cause diseases are similarly in the tank all the time, simply at low enough levels not to cause problems.

[Tay690]

Ok so judging by what you're saying I'm doing everything perfect

I have 2 air lines and a powerhead directed at the surface for more agitation

fresh carbon just went in on the last WC but I didn't get a chance to bump up the salt dosage...(had baseball last night)

I looked at the big guy this morning and he has more spots today...again it's only him that has spots...no one else

all the ornaments are still out and the loaches don't seem too stressed...they actually seem quite ok even though they have no place to hide

I do have one huge pipe ornament that I could put in...I'll have to file it down for a good few hours to get all the sharp edges off...but if you really think it's a good idea to put a cavelike ornament to help the fish with their stress level...then that's what I'll do

thanks again

Sincerely,
Taylor
I will bump up the dosage tonight when I get home and post the update tomorrow

[Diana]

Stress level vs. trap for Ich. Maybe there is something a little more open? An arch of driftwood? Something more like a ceramic bridge, short so the water flows through better.

I agree with your idea that a relatively small tube with poor water flow would contribute to more Ich infection.

How about leaning a thin piece of slate against the glass? You could see in and keep a close eye on the fish, but they would have at least half a cover. Very easy to move for a few seconds to vacuum under it.

[Tay690]

I don't have any slate in my tank atm

just lava rock

The pipe ornament I was talking about has about 10 difference entrances (top bottom sides...all over the place) so I'm guessing that would be better than the cave and bridge ornaments I had in there before...just for the fact that there are so many holes

Keep those blasted parasites from rising to the interior of the ornament

what about the fact that one specific loach is the only one showing signs of ich? and he has been the only one this entire last 6 weeks that has had any spots

I've been soaking their food with garlic guard for about 15 mins before I put the food in (usually sinking pellets and freeze dried blood worms...change blood worms with kelp 2 times a week)

Am I not soaking it long enough? I'm thinking the only reason this one loach keeps having the ich spread on him alone is the fact his immune system is extremely weak and unable to push off the troublesome spots

what do you think?

[chefkeith]

Yes, it does sound like you are on the right track.

My guess is that all of the fish in the tank have ich in their gills, but not on their body. IMO, the ich infections that you can't see is the worst kind. If the gill infections get bad enough it will eventually suffocate the fish. It's really the saddest way to see a fish die. If this happens you'll see the fish using all it's energy trying to breath at the surface and they'll be trying to rest on heaters or other objects near the top of the tank. You need to act quickly at this point because the fish won't have much time left. If it gets this bad, IME it's best to move the fish to a bucket or quarantine tank and just put a few inches of water in it. The water chemistry in the bucket needs to match the main tanks, so if there is a salt treatment going on, the water will need to be pre-dosed with salt. Use just enough treated water to cover the fish. Then add an air stone. Do not feed the fish, that will just pollute the water, and make the fish work harder. At least once per day you'll have to do a 100% water change or move the fish to a new bucket or q-tank with a fresh supply of treated water. It may take about a week to 10 days before the fish gets better. That's if it can hang on to it's last thread of life.

As for which fish gets the most infected- The fishes general health and immune system is a big part of it, another is how thick and impenetrable their slime coat is. Any rough surfaces that the fish comes in contact with could damage their slime coat and give ich an opening to infect the body. For that reason, sharp gravel and stones (like lava rock) are not the most suitable in loach tanks. Round river rocks, slate, pea gravel, and sand would be more ideal.

edit:
After further thought, I probably shouldn't have guessed that ich is hidden in the gills. Fact is- I don't know. I just hope I didn't put you into a panic.

[Tay690]

I'm glad you edited that...I was panicing lol

The 3 lava rocks I have are all smooth..I made sure of it when I picked them out

and I haven't seen any signs of any loaches swimming close to the surface...unless I feed them freeze dried blood worms

but other than that behaviour is totally normal as well as eating habits

I think by tomorrow morning the spots will drop off the big guy
maybe i'll bump up the salt a little more just to make sure it's gone this time...hopefully FOR GOOD

is 14 days too long to continue the treatment after the last spots dissapear? I'd rather be safe than sorry honestly

[chefkeith]

14 days isn't too long. It might not even be long enough. It all depends on the strain of ich you are dealing with. Normally you'd only wait about 1 week, but it sounds like you are dealing with one of the super strains of ich. If the ich cysts were staying on the body for 3 weeks, then you should keep up the treatment up for at least 4 weeks after the last ich spot was seen.