Loaches Online Forum

You did hit upon something else that she does with the kuhlis. She only orders about 10 fish so that they are shipped in a bigger bag but in lower numbers. I have always felt that part of the problem was them hurting themselves as they fling about the bag.

My lfs insists that they never have problems with kuhlis. However, they too only order 15 - 20 at a time, so the small # per order hypothesis may apply here. I do recall, though, that they lost quite a few kuhlis after a new shipment a while ago, all within that 5-day kuss window. They currently have a couple dozen that have been in the same tank for several weeks. The fish-room manager said that she'd rather just order new ones for me because the ones in the tank are so hard to catch! I demurred for now. The reason they are so hard to catch? They are in a tank with a large under-gravel filter, with easy access through the lift-tube . . . The tank is on an upper shelf, so by looking under the tank we can see them lounging happily about in the detritus under the filter.

Sorry, I don't believe in the the small # per order hypothesis per se.

the small # per order with lots of water and very careful packaging is probably true. Simply small # works even worse in the stores around here: a chain pet store orders in quantities like 8/10/16/20 and the losses are still very bad. And they order from a local distribution center!

I do recall, though, that they lost quite a few kuhlis after a new shipment a while ago, all within that 5-day kuss window. -- somehow this sounds familiar. I actually go to four stores of the same chain, all close by, and see similar results in three of them. In the fourth, which is actually the best run branch, they would not deal with khulis anymore. And btw, they get pretty similar results with dojos too, and dojos are shipped in small quantaties...

Anyway, khulis in the undergravel filter is a known phenomenon , your lfs should have known better... But these khulis are probably pretty good, and if you can see them from the bottom of the tank and see no bad signs (like fungus), it may be best to try to get them. They have successfully adjusted, so they will adjust to your tank too if you acclimate them. Leaving fish in __most__ lfs' for months is not a good thing for them....eventually something will go wrong and kill them....

There are some things that can be tried here. I think the store should want to get them out, since they'll have to do it anyway when one khuli dies....

1. Strip the tank. -- I don't think your store would like this, but you can certainly try to insist that you want *these khulis*. Since it is not your tank, I'd try to convince them first....
2. Build Khuli traps (a bottle with food and a one-day door) --- this is slow.... I think this is more for catching khulis at home.
3. Add Melafix to the tank. Khulis really don't like it and it makes them swim. Hopefully this will make them come out...

Melafix is what I used to move them from one tank to another here. Even when there is no undegravel filter problem, catching a khuli in a tank that is not empty is not exactly trivial, and a long chase may stress them more seriously than melafix high. But catching a swimming khuli is easy. I'd take some water from the tank before adding melafix, so you can put them in clean water. While I don't think that melafix is actually harmful to them, no need to prolong the exposure.

good luck.

I've never had the problem of kuhlis in the undergravel filter, but I have with Sinobotia pulchra and various botias.
What I did was use a very strong light and chase them out the uplift tube. Then, of course, you have to seal everything off. The above mentioned fish learned how to pry the caps off the unused uplift tube fittings. I got special caps that prevent this. If the kuhlis are getting in through the uplift tube itself, you might be able to prevent that by cutting pieces of plastic canvas(used in needle point and other crafts) to fit into the outlet.

Jim Powers wrote:I've never had the problem of kuhlis in the undergravel filter, but I have with Sinobotia pulchra and various botias.

I never had this problem myself (I do have an ug filter in one tank). But I heard of it, and a store likely will have it happen.

Khulis are fairly predictable. If your tank has a hiding place, even not perfect, they will quickly find it, probably will stay there for a week--unless you bother them, and they will never think about the underground filter. No problem.

But if your tank is bare, has other fish, and you make constant noise and put things in and out, they will their shelter in the filter. And they will stay there until they feel safe above the ground, which will never happen in a store tank.

If the kuhlis are getting in through the uplift tube itself

probably through the gravel, they dig into gravel even when not scared, and they will dig deep enough when they are looking for cover.

The light trick is a nice new idea...but I think it would not do much good if the tank has large gravel and I suspect it does...the khulis will dig into it. I once spent 2 hours removing khulis from the gravel in a 10g...had to remove the gravel very slowly, stone by stone, as not to hurt the khulis inside....

....

The problem I did have was a BN finding his way to the outside filter....

Kuhlis in a healthy tank don't generally burrow in gravel, IME. They are found - and caught - amongst leaf litter along the banks of slow streams and in blackwater situations with extremely high mulm or peaty bottoms. The bright lights of most fish tanks are only suitable if the tanks are very densely planted. These fish avoid light and sudden movement.

On the matter of imports, most of the "best" imports I have seen involve large shipments of fish done as fast as possible. Many perish. Many more perish when they are put in holding or lfs tanks that have no substrate at all and nothing in which to find shelter from the light.

The way it should be done, IMO, to avoid casualties, is to import them in opaque plastic bags in small numbers and provide them with a settling point in a clean, mature tank with (not ample, not abundant) copious shelter.

I personally think that putting a kuhli loach in a tank with inadequate dense shelter and average aquarium lighting is cruel. I highly recommend bringing them to a tank with a mature and spreading mix of Lilaeopsis species. This provides a close, light-diffused area to seek shelter, and the resulting mulm is of benefit to these fish, I believe.

Mark......I hear you on the ethics of providing kuhlis with a suitably cozy environment in a dealer's tank, but you've never worked in an aquarium retail or wholesale environment have you?

The realities are that such an environment would make catching the fish in a time-efficient manner impossible. Remember when I bought those Pangio cuneovirgata? It took the guy absolutely ages to get 10 fish from out of the large blue gravel in the tank.

Imagine, these guys just dissapeared between those blue chunks. When I went back later to get another 10 for Cybermeez, the situation was worse.


The guy had to destroy the tank to find the fish because there were only a few left. In a bare tank this could have been accomplished in a very short time with less stress for the catcher and the fish and little or no risk of damage to the fish.
When I worked in a wholesalers, I had to catch and count hundreds of kuhlis when we had a shipment going out to a retailer. It would not have been efficient to have any decor in the tank. All our stock tanks for all species were bare aquaria, only the upstairs shop retail tanks had substrate and plants. As I recall (it was the end of the '60's!), we never sold kuhlis out of those tanks, only from the bare basement holding-tanks.
Certainly, once you get them home, a multi hidey-hole Q-tank is an excellent idea, plus a similar permanent home. Mine lived in a 30 Breeder as MikeV suggested, this makes a great kuhli tank. The front to back dimension gives good scope for aquascaping.

Murphy's Law being what it is, I recently deleted a picture of that tank in it's kuhli incarnation. Previously, it looked like this, which would have been equally kuhli-friendly:



Serious Cryptocoryne jungle with sand substrate.

I now have a mix of Pangio anguillaris, P. cuneovirgata, and P. piperata in a 120 that is planted with low Crypts that form a network which tends to hold mulm....most of which is wood-pulp ejected from the rear-end of a 6" Panaque nigrolineatus. I'm sure this provides the Crypts with good food and the kuhlis like being able to dissapear.

Only other fish are some Boraras maculatus (Dwarf Rasbora)



....and a lone survivor Pseudomugil gertrudae



Both these species make nice inoffensive Dithers for kuhlis.

Martin.

Mark wrote:Kuhlis in a healthy tank don't generally burrow in gravel, IME.

You may want to try this sometimes: add a small pile of round large gravel in the corner of the tank, and then feed above this area. Before long you should see the khulis squeezing deep into the gravel; it is easy for them to do since there are sufficiently large holes already and their slime protects them and eliminates the friction. And this is not just about food: they would rest buried in such ground with only head sticking out. A lot like CL's in a driftwood cave. Large gravel/pebbles actually may an alternative environment they are adapted for. I have such a gravel corner in my 65g and they dig into it even if this is not the most preferred hiding place...

My khuli extraction mess was the result of trying to make a comfortable q-tank for them. I filled the 10g with large round gravel and added driftwood and a couple of hiding places. Everything was fine, but when it was the time to move them to the main tank, I learned just how well they can hide in the ground. stone by stone, over two hours, I was afraid to squeeze them.

A bare tank with strong light is most certainly cruel, but I can understand why fs' prefer it -- khulis are difficult to catch in any other setup.

I'm not entirely sure about light and sudden movement with "established" khulis. The ones I had for long time tend to watch and ignore movements outside of the tank, and even sudden movements are paid no attention to, and they don't mind to rest under direct light for long time either (this **may** apply to the younger males more). The main knot of my myersi is permanently located on the border of the direct light area. Black khulis in the same tank are more sensitive to light/movement and do stay in the darker area.

(I've been experimenting with now 15-17 myersi different setups in three tanks for a while to see what they really want. No clear answer yet. "15-17" is because two may be another sp.)

Thanks for the Lilaeopsis hint, this will go into the planning list for the 30g thing. The idea is again to give them different areas in the tank (including gravel) and let them decide.

Martin, I was speaking in ideal terms. Of course shops will stick them in bare tanks for the ease of catching. I suspect this is not helpful to their overall survival rate, though, which is the main problem with importing kuhlis of any species, it seems.

Mikev, kuhlis will go after food wherever they can find it, including gravel substrates. I agree. The ones I keep though are not burrowing fish. Provided an alternative, I don't think it would happen at all.

The main point I was trying to make was about how too often they are treated like any other aquarium fish. Their needs are quite specific, IMO.

Ah, but not all shops are like that!
Our kuhlis have sand substrates, plus bogwood, rocks, and plants such as cryptocorynes to hide in/under. Catching them out may take slightly longer, but we'd prefer them to be happy during their temporary stay with us.

Emma

I think that's a good system Emma. I was talking more the logistics of wholesale facilities. In a retail situation, if I had to catch kuhlis from a display tank I would prefer around a 1/4" of sand, some flats of bogwood (without cavities) and potted plants that could be removed to ease the catching process.

Martin.

Mark in Vancouver wrote: Mikev, kuhlis will go after food wherever they can find it, including gravel substrates. I agree. The ones I keep though are not burrowing fish. Provided an alternative, I don't think it would happen at all.

In my tank, it did. They stayed in burrowed in gravel for hours (not looking for food), just like they stay "hidden" inside a plant. The only reason this stopped lately is the CL's who are now big enough to move gravel (lift stones and carry away) and seem to enjoy doing this. I have a (very) slim hope that the large gravel is actually the natural breeding environment...

Here is how I see the khuli 30G experiment, hopefully answering their needs:

Divide the tank into 3 parts.

Part1: planted about the way Martin's photo above shows.
Part2: light planting and *something* simulating leaves on the ground.
Part3: fairly open including a gravel patch. (I need Part3 for making pictures, feeding, and making possible to catch a khuli if the need comes up).
A piece of driftwood on one side, probably in parts 1 and 2.

Ideal dither fish: http://www.danios.info/Contents/species/danio19.asp
Why this one?
Right size, easy to maintain, not as aggressive as zebras, need the same water parameters, breed all the time (this is good for more than one reason), and look very nice too...

I saw them at a store two weeks ago and they do look nice...unfortunately, the fish was seriously mislabeled (the tag said: "Blue Danios", Danio rerio, average adult size is 3in) and with the price tag of $5 and plenty of ich and dead fish in several tanks around, I decided to make sure they are what I thought they were... Few days later they were gone (sold accordingly to the store...quite clearly not the case, since they also "sold" lots of other fish that did not sell for months...). Anyway, they promised to reorder or maybe I'll find them elsewhere. If not, the choice is between Danio albolineatus (who are quite ugly imho) and Martin's suggestion of Boraras maculatus (who are nice, but asaik don't breed, so it is a temp. solution only). I doubt that livebearers would work (different water params, and probably different hormones) but will try to recheck on them.

A couple of otos if I cannot manage the algae otherwise (I'd rather not).

And I still need to think through exactly what kind of plants, filter, etc, so this is not likely to happen until late in May.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Ugggh, those cuneovirgatas are beautiful. A case of serious envy on this end. How do you find fish like this? I don't think any store around even heard about them....

Errr Mike....are you aware at how efficient Danios are at being predators? They're real good at egg and fry predation.

As your link was to Peter's site, you'll have had to enter via one of my photos

Ah yes, the P. cuneovirgata.......I'm not sure that you'll want to hear this.......they were at my local Big Als for 99c each, which is why Cybermeez drove from NY to Toronto to come pick up her's. They had no idea what they were......just 'baby' kuhlis (they were around 1.5"). I felt like a theif buying them at that price

For your leaf-litter area, do you know anywhere that you can buy Almond leaves? A few fish shops sell them now imported from Singapore usually. Very good for water quality and a lot of shippers send them in bags with delicate fish. Kuhlis like grubbing through those, e.g.......



Martin.

I know Martin , I was referring to what Mark said really:

"Of course shops will stick them in bare tanks for the ease of catching. I suspect this is not helpful to their overall survival rate, though, which is the main problem with importing kuhlis of any species, it seems."

(should have put it in quote box earlier).
And I know the sort of shops Mark is referring to, but I was just pointing out that there a still a few good 'uns out there who put their fish's wellbeing before mass sales .

Emma

Martin Thoene wrote:Errr Mike....are you aware at how efficient Danios are at being predators? They're real good at egg and fry predation.

I'm seriously concerned about it. I assumed that fry predation is a non-issue, because I should be able to remove them in time. As for the eggs, I was actually going to the store to test if they can take food from the ground at all. -- the only danios I have now, which are a Bengal variation, are incapable of this (but too large).... I thought that they are the best source of the hormones I can find and this outweights the risk. If this is naive please say so...

(I'm up to five, possibly six, green bellied khulis now and this is one of the main considerations...)

As your link was to Peter's site, you'll have had to enter via one of my photos

TBA, no, someone else who is seriously into danios ID'd them by a verbal description and gave me the link...I was fairly sure they were pretty similar to ambers, but never saw them before. A very nice site, btw.

Ah yes, the P. cuneovirgata.......I'm not sure that you'll want to hear this.......they were at my local Big Als for 99c each, which is why Cybermeez drove from NY to Toronto to come pick up her's. They had no idea what they were......just 'baby' kuhlis (they were around 1.5"). I felt like a theif buying them at that price

(Considerably more envy here. Not about the price..they are beautiful)

For your leaf-litter area, do you know anywhere that you can buy Almond leaves? A few fish shops sell them now imported from Singapore usually.

Not yet, but now thanks to you I know the questions to ask